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hawkeye

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I am the breeder of Bucknappy’s lethal white foal. As she said, I did tell her the mare could be carrying a lethal foal. I went into great detail on what a lethal foal was, answered her many questions and stressed the emotional impact the birth of a lethal foal has on not only the mare but the owner. She insisted she wanted the mare regardless and I mistakenly thought she did understand the situation and that nothing but euthanasia could be done for the foal if it was in fact a lethal. I also offered to keep the mare here and foal her out and rebreed her to a negative stallion if the foal was lethal.

I have been breeding horses for over 40 years and anyone who knows me knows that my horses have the best of care. I have been breeding Paints followed by miniature overos for about 20 years and in that time have had just one other lethal foal. I am well aware of statistics (having courses in college for my profession) and what they do and do not prove. It is true the classic punnett square indicates a 25% chance of a lethal foal. The actual documented incidence is 7.8%. I AM aware of what that figure may not include, i.e., embryonic death, under reporting, etc. I (as well as many other reputable breeders), am willing to take that risk in order to combine the bloodlines of two individuals not only for color but for other attributes. While the birth of a lethal foal is tragic and draining emotionally for the mare and the breeder, it is no more so than losing a foal (and many times the mare) to a dystocia, red bag delivery, etc. In my experience those complications occur far more frequently and pose no less risk to the foal and the mare. If we use the line of reasoning that the risk is too great maybe we should all get out of the business of breeding miniature horses….

I respect the opinions of those who do not approve of certain breeding practices and their right to express that disapproval. However, I would NEVER, regardless of my personal opinion, be so unprofessional and crude as to go on a public forum and call someone a worm, moron, etc., because I disagree with them. I would hope that as adults we could refrain from name calling. It is not my intent to become involved in a “flaming contest” so this will be my only post regarding this tragic outcome for bucknappy.
 

Keri

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Well said! Things happen that are beyond our control and we breed knowing that something can happen to our babies in the end (red bags, etc. as stated).
 

yellerroseintx

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this whole topic is just sad for all those involved and affected
 
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Minimor

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Yes, we breed mares knowing that something can go wrong--dystocia, red bag, whatever. Things happen. However, there are enough things that can go wrong all on their own without a breeder increasing the odds of something going wrong by deliberately breeding for a foal that has a 25% chance of dying int he way that lethal white foals die!

Breeding two HYPP carriers, or breeding two CIDS carriers or breeding two LWO+ horses....all these things make me--and many others--label a breeder as IRRESPONSIBLE. Why on earth would you take that risk? Worse, why would you subject a foal to such a fate?

edited because I initially typed SIDS instead of CIDS--don't know why because I was thinking Arabians, not babies!--I realized it as soon as I posted it but my internet connection died & I didn't have time to reconnect & fix it just then. Sorry!
 
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yellerroseintx

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Yes, we breed mares knowing that something can go wrong--dystocia, red bag, whatever. Things happen. However, there are enough things that can go wrong all on their own without a breeder increasing the odds of something going wrong by deliberately breeding for a foal that has a 25% chance of dying int he way that lethal white foals die!

Breeding two HYPP carriers, or breeding two SIDS carriers or breeding two LWO+ horses....all these things make me--and many others--label a breeder as IRRESPONSIBLE. Why on earth would you take that risk? Worse, why would you subject a foal to such a fate?


*******edited to add...sorry Minimor to jump before I thought....its an emotional time...my apologies...*******
 
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disneyhorse

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Yellowroseintexas.... I believe she was referring to Equine SIDS.

I also must agree that a responsible breeder should avoid KNOWN fatal conditions at all costs. This is why we test for the genetics! Why bother testing if you are going to risk the life of an animal in the end anyway?

We need to take advantage of the technology available to us today, to rise above ignorance and irresponsible-ness (if that is a word?) to do what is best and right for the animals we are breeding.

Andrea
 

ozymandias

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Well said! Things happen that are beyond our control and we breed knowing that something can happen to our babies in the end (red bags, etc. as stated).
Yes, and there is no test for those sad happenings...the IS a test for LWO. ANYONE willing to roll the dice without thought or caring to the suffering that that 1 in 4 goes through before they DIE SUFFERING - unless the baby is lucky enough to be born to an owne,r like this one was, that cares enough to end the suffering - well...sorry "WORM" isn't a strong enough word.

Yes, it's irresponsible, uncaring and cruel to the foal and the new owner. SHame on you !
 

horseplay

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I don't know how ANYONE can compare red bag or dytocia to breeding 2 LWO horses, that is INSANE to say the least. Why in the world would someone take that chance? I don't care how close to perfect of a horse you might get, it is a horrible chance to take. Shame on you and anyone else who would do this. I think I threw up a little in my mouth reading your post hawkeye and I need to go brush my teeth.
 

rockin r

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I (as well as many other reputable breeders), am willing to take that risk in order to combine the bloodlines of two individuals not only for color but for other attributes. While the birth of a lethal foal is tragic and draining emotionally for the mare and the breeder, it is no more so than losing a foal (and many times the mare) to a dystocia, red bag delivery, etc. In my experience those complications occur far more frequently and pose no less risk to the foal and the mare. If we use the line of reasoning that the risk is too great maybe we should all get out of the business of breeding miniature horses….

I must be missing something, :DOH! you intentionally breed LWO to LWO??? How can you compare to red bag delivery and dystocia, etc. to that??? These things are not bred for, they unfortunately happen! LWO to a LWO is an intentional tragedy waiting to happen!!

It is not my intent to become involved in a “flaming contest” so this will be my only post regarding this tragic outcome for bucknappy.

You said it yourself, tragic outcome
 

rockin r

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Well said! Things happen that are beyond our control and we breed knowing that something can happen to our babies in the end (red bags, etc. as stated).
Yes, and there is no test for those sad happenings...the IS a test for LWO. ANYONE willing to roll the dice without thought or caring to the suffering that that 1 in 4 goes through before they DIE SUFFERING - unless the baby is lucky enough to be born to an owne,r like this one was, that cares enough to end the suffering - well...sorry "WORM" isn't a strong enough word.

Yes, it's irresponsible, uncaring and cruel to the foal and the new owner. SHame on you !
 

luv2ridesaddleseat

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OMG, how sad that a breeder would take a chance like this. Absolutely discusting actually. Totally irresponsible, selfish, and not giving a darn about the animals, only about trying to produce that "perfect horse" at any cost. SHAME ON YOU!
 

PaintNminis

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Also (I don't want to cause Trouble)

Red Bags and those types of things arn't Preventable

But The Foals can Survive from those types of things

but the poor Lethal Foals Can't Survive but they can be avoided
 

RJRMINIS

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Lately when I have been on different websites, I have noticed a few breeders that have tested their mares and it says they are bred to their stallion which when you look on his page you see he is positive too....I just don't understand this, I can understand an accidental breeding, or not having them tested and finding out the hard way, but to "KNOW" and have tested them and to still chose to breed them just does not make sense to me, it is HEARTBREAKING to lose a foal....ANY FOAL.....no matter what the reason, but to lose one for a reason you could have prevented just is not something I would ever do for any reason. I don't wait 11 months to have a foal arrive to lose it because of something I could have prevented.
I know when I visit these sites and see that they chose to breed them, I just shake my head and click off of their site. That is my choice.


I do have a LW+ stallion, and every mare he is bred to is tested BEFORE HAND!
 

tagalong

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Shame on you and anyone else who would do this. I think I threw up a little in my mouth reading your post hawkeye and I need to go brush my teeth.
Wow.

horseplay - you can disagree with the poster - but that ^^^ kind of commentary is unnecessary.


Yes, and there is no test for those sad happenings...the IS a test for LWO. ANYONE willing to roll the dice without thought or caring to the suffering that that 1 in 4 goes through before they DIE SUFFERING - unless the baby is lucky enough to be born to an owne,r like this one was, that cares enough to end the suffering - well...sorry "WORM" isn't a strong enough word.
Bolding mine - ozymandias - you seem to be suggesting that hawkeye would simply watch a LW foal suffer and die on its own - and not have it put down to ease its suffering? Wow again.

Personally, I would not breed two LWO+ horses together and take the chance of a LW foal. My choice.

But one would think we could have a discussion about it without using a public forum to call people names and suggest that they would stand by and watch a foal die a painful death...

Apparently not.
 
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lil hoofbeats

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WOW! Im with Tag a long on this one!

Hawkeye, as i have told many breeders that i keep in contact with, you better know who you are selling to! It is far easier to know who to buy from, than to know who to sell to!! This is one of those examples! You were up front an honest, you told everything loud and clear, and still got bit!

 


Breeding horses is NOT for the "faint of heart" that was stated to me by my vet when i first started breeding horses. I never forgot it. About once or twice a year i hear that "little voice" telling me that again! Some breeders will get that statement , others will just not understand! And they will never understand.


 


Hawkeye, I think you have some wonderful horses, beautiful quality, awsome color! I have always enjoyed visiting your website!
Seller Beware!!
 
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Minimor

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Bolding mine - ozymandias - you seem to be suggesting that hawkeye would simply watch a LW foal suffer and die on its own - and not have it put down to ease its suffering? Wow again.
Maybe I misunderstood ozy's post--I took it that she was meaning there are some people who would do exactly that thing--not that hawkeye would do it, but some buyers wouldn't care as much as BuckNappy did, and Hawkeye could have sold to someone that didn't care und bottom line in that case is that hawkeye would have been responsible for that foal's suffering...


You were up front an honest, you told everything loud and clear, and still got bit!
No, I'm afraid it was that little foal that got bit! And the little mare that had her baby taken away...the seller didn't get bit, she made a deliberate decision & if she doesn't like the bad reputation that decision gives her with some people, she brought that on herself.


Breeding horses is NOT for the "faint of heart" that was stated to me by my vet when i first started breeding horses. I never forgot it. About once or twice a year i hear that "little voice" telling me that again! Some breeders will get that statement , others will just not understand! And they will never understand.
Many of us understand much more than you think. And we obviously care much more than a few.

as i have told many breeders that i keep in contact with, you better know who you are selling to
That's for sure, and it's nice that threads like this one and the original one make it easy to pick out some NOT to sell to!
 

Jill

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Some people who are so ready to chime in are not even breeders, and may not know the half of what goes into being one.

My heart goes out to the owner, very much so, and I am not without understanding of why Sharon (Hawkeye) made the choice she made with breeding. I know she had hopes of an oustanding foal.

There are far more people (here, on this message board) breeding really poor quality horses and some of them probably cannot wait to cast stones at an otherwise successful breeder.

I'm sure if the clock could be turned back with the outcome known, different choices would have been made. People should not be so quick to condemn.
 
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rabbitsfizz

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I am the breeder of Bucknappy’s lethal white foal. As she said, I did tell her the mare could be carrying a lethal foal. I went into great detail on what a lethal foal was, answered her many questions and stressed the emotional impact the birth of a lethal foal has on not only the mare but the owner. She insisted she wanted the mare regardless and I mistakenly thought she did understand the situation and that nothing but euthanasia could be done for the foal if it was in fact a lethal. I also offered to keep the mare here and foal her out and rebreed her to a negative stallion if the foal was lethal.

I have been breeding horses for over 40 years and anyone who knows me knows that my horses have the best of care. I have been breeding Paints followed by miniature overos for about 20 years and in that time have had just one other lethal foal. I am well aware of statistics (having courses in college for my profession) and what they do and do not prove. It is true the classic kennett square indicates a 25% chance of a lethal foal. The actual documented incidence is 7.8%. I AM aware of what that figure may not include, i.e., embryonic death, under reporting, etc. I (as well as many other reputable breeders), am willing to take that risk in order to combine the bloodlines of two individuals not only for color but for other attributes. While the birth of a lethal foal is tragic and draining emotionally for the mare and the breeder, it is no more so than losing a foal (and many times the mare) to a dystocia, red bag delivery, etc. In my experience those complications occur far more frequently and pose no less risk to the foal and the mare. If we use the line of reasoning that the risk is too great maybe we should all get out of the business of breeding miniature horses….

I respect the opinions of those who do not approve of certain breeding practices and their right to express that disapproval. However, I would NEVER, regardless of my personal opinion, be so unprofessional and crude as to go on a public forum and call someone a worm, moron, etc., because I disagree with them. I would hope that as adults we could refrain from name calling. It is not my intent to become involved in a “flaming contest” so this will be my only post regarding this tragic outcome for bucknappy.
Sorry Sharon and everyone else, I admire your courage in being so open but I stand by every word I said.

There is NO foal that could possibly be so wonderful (and this one was going to be so very good that you sold the mare in foal????? Way to pass the buck, BTW) NO foal is so potentially good that I would risk it's life to have it born.

None.

No excuse, no reason.

Whatever the statistics you have been reading, the FACT is that LWO+ X LWO+ = 25% LWO H/Z foals.

No way round that, it is a cold equation.

If you have got away with it, well done you.

Bucknappy did NOT.

You might want to think about that.

And, at the end of the day, it is not YOU who pays the ultimate price...now is it??

This is, in my book, disgraceful behaviour.

Whatever you might think it gives you no better chance of a well marked foal than using another pattern to cross with.

And even if it did..so what??

What gives you the right to take a chance, not with the foal, so much, I have to say, as losing foals is a fact of life if you breed, but to deliberately put a mare through the pain of losing her baby??

Shame on you.
 

Songcatcher

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WOW! Im with Tag a long on this one!

Hawkeye, as i have told many breeders that i keep in contact with, you better know who you are selling to! It is far easier to know who to buy from, than to know who to sell to!! This is one of those examples! You were up front an honest, you told everything loud and clear, and still got bit!

 


Breeding horses is NOT for the "faint of heart" that was stated to me by my vet when i first started breeding horses. I never forgot it. About once or twice a year i hear that "little voice" telling me that again! Some breeders will get that statement , others will just not understand! And they will never understand.


 


Hawkeye, I think you have some wonderful horses, beautiful quality, awsome color! I have always enjoyed visiting your website!
Seller Beware!!



There are always at least TWO sides to every story. I was not planning to post on this thread, but the above post made me feel that there was something being misunderstood. It SEEMS to me that the original poster was NOT trying to berate the breeder, but simply trying to learn about a situation (as evidenced by the quote below; [bolding mine])


 


QUOTE(BuckNappy @ Jul 5 2008, 11:11 AM) QUOTE(BuckNappy @ Jul 5 2008, 11:11 AM)



I just wanted to update everyone on my mare.
I prefer not to use her name as I dont want anyone attacking the breeder ,Yes it was a stupid thing to do but everyone makes mistakes,fortunately she has since bought a stallion that is not positive.I am thankful that she did warn me about the lethal white possability,unfortunately some breeders would not have mentioned this and I would not have known what to watch for.Im not making excuses for her,I just know that I have made mistakes and have educated myself and corrected them.I dont like to be upset with anyone.It is a shame ANYONE would take such a chance on a life,it is heartbreaking to say the least.....Well back to my mare,she is doing much better today,she has joined the others in the pasture and has stopped asking for her baby.I did let her spend time with the filly after she was put down yesterday but she didnt seem to realize she was gone.It looked as if there was a little white angel sleeping in the stall.She was a gorgeous little girl....I just hope this post has helped educate horse breeders that this DOES happen.I personally have never heard of a lethal white until now.I now know that I will have my horses tested for this gene.Thank you everyone for the information and the support.You are are so wonderful.

 




QUOTE(BuckNappy @ Jul 5 2008, 11:11 AM)

To which I replied,


 




What a wonderful, positive attitude. Few people would be so gracious. My hat is off to you.
 


Hawkeye then started this thread as an explanation as some people surely figured out who the breeder was even though not named in the original thread.


 


While I do not agree with Hawkeye's choice of breeding, I find it no more repulsive than some of the attacks against it. This forum is far too full of people willing to condemn and make accusations against others without considering BOTH sides of the situation. And, as stated before, some of the ones making the judgements have no real understanding or knowledge of breeding. It also appears to me that there was more that went into Hawkeye's decision than just producing a pattern.


 


This is NOT an endorsement of breeding LWO+ to LWO+. It is my CHOICE to not do that. I do not feel it is worth the risk. However, it is NOT my place to condemn someone else's choice and I HOPE I did not come across that way in my post on the other thread.


 

 
 

Floridachick

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Well said! Things happen that are beyond our control and we breed knowing that something can happen to our babies in the end (red bags, etc. as stated).
I just wanted to say EXACTLY WE HAVE THINGS HAPPEN BEYOND OUR CONTROL! This is poor breeding, inhumane and just inexcusable to breed two LWO's intentionally! ITS A CHOICE, NOT an accident. SHAME ON YOU FOR BREEDING THEM! I am so sorry for the mare and the new loving owner.
 

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