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Lewella

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I just received an email from a director that yesterday the BOD made the descision to stop putting the A's and B's from papers effective March 1, 2008!!!!!!!!!! We will apparently now show on type.........
 
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SweetOpal

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wow!!! I am shocked as well. Is this for the miniatures or for the shetlands, I remember at Convention that it came up for the minis and was of course voted down by the members.
 

Lewella

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The BOD member I heard from just mentioned that Shetlands would now be shown on type.

I want to know what is going to happen to the Foundation ponies! I have spent a lot of money on Foundation Seals and built a Foundation breeding program!
 

dannigirl

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This is something that should be voted on by the owners of the ponies and not by just the board. I, too, wonder what will happen next with the foundation. I have also put a lot of time and money in my foundation stock.
 

alongman

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I would like to hear from some of our BOD members....... why, when the membership voted this down, was the decision made? I help elect my BOD member based on how they will represent ME ME ME! This seems like a slap in the face if the membership isn't being accurately represented.

From a different perspective, though. I know that there are ponies who don't accurately fit the "type" classified by their papers. For example, a B-papered shetland who is very classic type. This seems to be the only situation that there would be a problem. Could we not have re-evaluated those ponies?

I guess I would like to see the exact rule change as it was written and approved. Maybe there is clarification in this somewhere.....
 

Leeana

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Im kind of just riding the fence on this right now. My first reaction to the email was "WHAT???" but really after i calmed down and looked at the big picture i think im just going to wait and read others replys before drawing any side on this and getting more info on WHY they did this. Im seeing both sides.

You would think that WE would have some say in this however! I understand being upset!

That takes act SOON!!! Wait a sec, that already is taking place isnt it ..march 1 2008? Isnt that today? Are you sure its not 2009?

Edited: Fran reminded me, i forgot about leap day lol. It took place yesterday ...
 
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OhHorsePee

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That was yesterday Leeanna.

So is this the beginning of phasing out the foundation type????
 

Irish Hills Farm

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I called and spoke to a lady that handles the shetland registrations this past Thursday in regards to two of my shetlands being foundation eligible. They both are and I sent in their papers and a check to have them foundation sealed so that I could show them in the foundation classes at Congress.

I'm gonna be upset if I just wasted money and time on having my ponies foundation sealed, and it not mean anything.
 

disneyhorse

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Hmmm... this does have interesting implications with the Foundation ponies, but overall I like the idea of not having an "A" or "B" designation because that way you don't have a Classic-type B papered pony you can't show. The emphasis is on showing more on type.

That said, how many oversize, off-type Foundation ponies are out there? Just because a pony CAN get the Foundation Seal doesn't mean it it Foundation type...

Either way, it is somewhat interesting. I do agree with Adam though, if the MEMBERS want the A and B, then the MEMBERS should have the say!

Andrea
 

kaykay

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heck with that lol

Oversize foundation horses cannot show foundation.

This will imo cause a huge free for all. You will now have every type of pony showing in every class. How in the heck will judges be able to penalize someone for showing off type if the majority of the class is off type?

This opens the door for small hackney ponies etc to show classic and foundation. For the breeders who have stayed true to type and breed classic and foundation ponies for generation after generation this is a huge slap in the face. breeders like Lewella (and many many others) have spent YEARS putting together foundation herds.

If I was a modern pony breeder and I produced a classic looking pony out of two moderns then I need to take a look at what im doing or just chalk it up to experience that that pony is not going to be a show pony. Not have the rules changed so that I can show my B pony as a classic! Its just not right.
 
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SweetOpal

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Kay,

I understand your frustration, but most of my moderns be it pleasure or modern, are A papered, I could show them all day long as classics, but I choose to show by type. And If I showed them classic I would hope it would be off type. I hardly see this guy competiting well in the classic and he is A papered.

 

kaykay

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I do understand Jennifer, and I wish everyone was like you!

But there are a lot of people out there who will now show a B modern (that cant cut it in modern or modern pleasure) in classic. It will happen unfortunately and then you have the trickle down effect so it will affect all the divsions including foundation.

I have only owned shetland ponies for 7 years now. So I dont have near the investment of time, money and heart that these other farms have. It will not affect me as much personally but it will affect all divisions of Shetland Ponies.

At least with the A and B designation there was a line that you could not cross. Now the line is gone

And I have never seen a new rule put into effect this quick! wowwww
 

disneyhorse

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Well eventually, since there are no longer outcrosses allowed, won't the B papered ponies dwindle away anyway? Then you would only have A papered horses, all of which could have the Foundation Seal, and then the Foundation Seal won't matter anyway!

I wonder if, with the pedigree going so far back, there was a way to see if IN THE PONY'S ENTIRE HISTORY there were any "B" papered horses? THOSE without would be "true" foundation, not just ponies who have a couple of generations of A papered horses behind them.

Since we already show by type, regardless of papers (Foundations oversize or not "in type" show Classic, Moderns with A papers not "in type" for Classic show Modern, and Classics who are A papered but not "in type for Classic show Modern Pleasure) I don't see why it's such a big deal.

I see very few "true" Foundation ponies anyway in the ring. They all look like small Classics to me. Small Classics are showing Foundation just so they don't have to compete against the taller ponies.

I see both sides... maybe there is a different solution for the Foundation issue. But nowadays, the A and B doesn't mean much between Modern and Classic. Half my Moderns are A papered. Eventually these A papered Moderns will be able to be Foundation Sealed, what good will that do?

They are shown by type and I think that is just fine.

Andrea
 

SweetOpal

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Well eventually, since there are no longer outcrosses allowed, won't the B papered ponies dwindle away anyway? Then you would only have A papered horses, all of which could have the Foundation Seal, and then the Foundation Seal won't matter anyway!
Well most Modern breeders that are breeding for the true modern, have B papered stallions, some A and B papered mares, so those offspring will always remain B papered due to the fact those B's will never turn to A's....So I don't see it happening that all B papers would eventually only produce A papered horses. That is my take on it anyways.
 

Lewella

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Eventually yes, everything would become A but as Jennifer mentioned there are still a lot of B papered ponies out there that are still 50% Hackney and their offspring will never be A papered and many of their offspring's offspring will never be A papered. Totally breeding out the B will take another 50 or more years.

I agree that when it comes to Classic, Modern Pleasure and Modern that going strictly by type IF IMPLEMENTED WITH GOOD RULES would be possible. But it needs to be rules like PtHA has - you register the pony by TYPE and then you MUST stay within that type. You can change type ONCE during the lifetime of that pony and you must pay $100 to do so. But you have to have type rules and right now we don't!

As for the Foundation Division - not only have many of us built Foundation breeding programs but we've had to pay EXTRA to make those ponies Foundation Certified ponies! If my Foundation Seal is suddenly worth nothing than by george I want my Foundation seal money back! I can think of 20 ponies I certified off the top of my head! I'm sure there are several others I'm forgetting at the moment. I know of other farms that have spent $500 plus on Foundation certifications.

And in case anyone wonders - I have never certified a pony that was "bred up" to Foundation. Every single pony I have ever certified has no B papered ponies it it's pedigree at all.

The reason in some areas you see small Classics in Foundation classes is easily fixed by offering Classic UNDER classes! Royal Splish Splash achieved his ASPC Halter Hall of Fame showing as an Under Classic!

There are already A papered Moderns with the Foundation Seal but the vast majority of them do not meet the height requirement. (Spit-N-Image had the Foundation Seal) That's always been an issue and the reason many of us who breed and show Foundation ponies have for years been trying to find a way to give the division more teeth. It's also why we have fought so hard to keep Foundation 42" and under for show purposes.

I spoke with a show manager earlier who asked how show managers should handle B papered ponies at shows this summer and this show manager was told that they can now show in whatever division they wish to show in. This show manager interpreted this to mean that a B papered pony can show in the Foundation division if the owner wants it to......
 

Lmequine

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Well eventually, since there are no longer outcrosses allowed, won't the B papered ponies dwindle away anyway? Then you would only have A papered horses, all of which could have the Foundation Seal, and then the Foundation Seal won't matter anyway!

Andrea
There are several breeders that have B papered ponies that are bred to B papered ponies and those foals will also be B papered. Until those die out or people stop breeding B to B then there are always going to be some B papered ponies, at least in my lifetime. I think that theoretically Shetlands can be bred to all become A's but many breeders are happy with their B papered ponies and will continue to breed B to B.

I personally feel ill over the whole thing mainly because of what it will do to our foundation ponies. Many people have spent a lot of money searching for and buying foundation ponies and spending the money to have older ponies foundation certified. A lot of us have went out of our way to support the foundation certification and to show truly foundation ponies. Again, I can maybe go for the idea of showing by type (if that was clearly clarified and followed in the showring) but why do away with the letter designation which will kill the foundation certification process?? I know the ASPC is making money with the foundation program and I doubt that ASPC is going to want to pay everyone back that has spent money for the foundation certification (and I CERTAINLY want my money back if I now has a worthless foundation seal). I will say if they are doing away with the foundation program what a lousy way to go about it and it really undermines the people that are breeding strictly for foundation certified AND foundation type ponies.
 

ponyarab

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I do understand Jennifer, and I wish everyone was like you!

But there are a lot of people out there who will now show a B modern (that cant cut it in modern or modern pleasure) in classic. It will happen unfortunately and then you have the trickle down effect so it will affect all the divsions including foundation.

I have only owned shetland ponies for 7 years now. So I dont have near the investment of time, money and heart that these other farms have. It will not affect me as much personally but it will affect all divisions of Shetland Ponies.

At least with the A and B designation there was a line that you could not cross. Now the line is gone

And I have never seen a new rule put into effect this quick! wowwww
I agree that there will be people showing their B modern in a classic class. In the foundation classes here in our area several of us have seen small classics showing in the foundation classes. A friend of mine has a true "Foundation" pony and last year when she went in her class there were 2 other ponies in the class and both were small classics and both beat her true foundation pony. One of the people came out of the class and made a comment to my friend that "I don't know what happened in there as your pony was a true foundation and mine was not".
Well in my opinion they should not have been in the foundation class then if they new their pony was not a foundation but they do it because they know they can get away with it. I think things like this will make it very discouraging to the people who raise the true foundation ponies if they are not going to have a shot at all.


 


Kim
 

alongman

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Just wanted to post a quick update. I called and spoke with Larry Parnell and several other board members about what was going on.... more or less just getting clarification rather than ranting and raving without knowing. Here's the deal:

The A and B papers are going away - no longer will a pony be designated as such. The ponies, instead, will show based on type despite their breeding. This will allow the B papered "classicy" pony to show as a Classic and vice versa. The Foundation Seal will NOT go away. Those ponies that are Foundation eligible will remain as such and be papered as such and have classes for them. Larry stated that these "are the only truly bred shetlands" and for the most part, I do agree. The Foundation ponies clearly have a history of being shetland. The Foundation horses will still have their classes for those ponies that meet Foundation type - same as today.

Larry did NOT see this as a bad thing - in fact, maybe increasing the business for the true Foundation breeders. These are the ONLY ponies now that will have the seal to prove their heritage! I could see it from this perspective - as someone who has purchased some Foundation animals this past couple years, I will continue to look for the "Foundation breeders" to purchase my stock from.

I hope I got all that right - if there is a BOD member on that wants to clarify, that would be great. I hope it sheds some light on what's going on.

Edited to say - It is still up to the responsible show person to know what "type" their horse is and place them in the correct class at a show. It is also up to the judges to recognize "off type" and not place them if they are showing in the incorrect class.
 
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disneyhorse

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Well, if there is no "A" and "B" to research by to GET a Foundation Seal, how is the Registry going to research pedigree to determine? It seems if the Registry wants to preserve the Foundation division, it will need to create some method of determining. Perhaps they can "create" some additional value by only allowing a Foundation Sealed pony bred to a Foundation Sealed pony to GET a Foundation eligible pony... or give the seal for "Free" to any additional new registered ponies whose parents already HAVE seals.

But yes, Adam... I think it will be nice for new members/new to ponies exhibitors to be able to show a "classic-y" B papered pony in Classic, and to just show by TYPE.

And, as Adam had explained in a previous post about showing off-type ponies, a challenge a judge has is to place the class before them. If a judge has two classics and a foundation pony in their Foundation Halter class, but the classics are clearly better quality, do they place the foundation pony who may have some faults, ahead of the other two ponies purely because of type? This is a judgement call that I am sure every judge must make!

Not all exhibitors can determine what type their pony is! Especially new-to-shetland exhibitors! I have trouble myself with the "borderline" ponies... it's NOT black and white no matter how much people will complain about the Modern Pleasure in their Classic class, or visa versa, or the "small Classic" in their Foundation class... it's a GREY AREA.

Andrea
 

muffntuf

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Edited to say - It is still up to the responsible show person to know what "type" their horse is and place them in the correct class at a show. It is also up to the judges to recognize "off type" and not place them if they are showing in the incorrect class.

I agree it is the responsibility of the exhibitor to know what "type" pony they are showing and put them in the correct class. The judges therefore, better not place wrong type in the top of the class and as an extra effort as education needs to occur, mention why a pony did not place in the class if the exhibitor wants to understand better where to put their pony.

Man this must be the year for changes, AQHA and APHA have made big rule changes too. No longer can you show a performance horse just in a performance class, you have to put them in a performance halter class now to qualify. Also they are accepted outcrops in each registry from the other registry, only as breeding stock, but heck those classes are now getting to be huge!

LOL! I believe foundation will stay foundation and have its seal, so I am not worried about you guys!
 

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