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susanne

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Hopefully I can get this posted while Breanna is still online...as well as all you other driving experts...

What would you recommend as a first bit for starting Mingus' ground-driving? Any tips on measuring, or is it best to try bits in person to see what fits?

Also, any suggestions on a good bridle to begin with? I've been very happy with our show halter from tack-wholesale.com, but don't know about their bridles.

Surcingles??

Any suggestions are welcome.
 
Hi Suzanne!

Have you ground driven him yet?? I always start my horses with just a halter, two long lines connected to the sides of the halter and gradually walking further and further behind the horse. It usually only takes about 30 minutes until I am pretty much behind them. Some horses want to spin around on you. If he does that stay at his shoulder so he can't get too far ahead of you and turn towards you. I don't intorduce the bit until the horse can turn both ways, and whoa with the halter, everytime I ask and with minimal pressure. My horses have very light mouths... Once they are into the bridle I use a regular snaffle bit. Of course I've had horses that just don't like them. I have a myler snaffle as well and also a mullen so I can move around until I find a bit they like. I also like the half cheek snaffle myself. As to size?? I just try my different bits on and if one is too small I move up to the next size... Sorry not much help there!!

Then I move into the harness itself. They wear the saddle and breeching, so they get used to the crouper under the tail, and the breeching tighening up on their behinds... And of course the cinch. I just use the bridle that comes with the harness once the horse is ready for it. So I don't find that I need a surcingal. To me that just adds a step that is not needed.

As for bridles and harness, always buy the absolute best you can afford. Or you may find that you are spending far more by replacing cheap pieces and parts that just won't fit!

I'm am interested in how MiniHGal starts her horses as well, so I'll be checking back in I'm sure...
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Thanks, Mindy! That'll be a big help, starting out with long lines on the halter first. We're pretty much starting from scratch, but he has his voice commands down now, in addition to good halter manners and -- finally -- a solid whoa.

It will be interesting to see how willing he is to move away from me...he loves to free lunge but acts like the lunge line is an insult, LOL!
 
I usually do the grounddriving starting in a bit...but! I do lots of lungeing with the bitting rig(which means here, saddle/backstrap/crupper and bridle and bit...by the time they are ready for ground driving they may also be in breeching and breastcollar/traces too). They should be very used to carrying the bit before I ground drive. I will also attach a line or rope to the bit, and start teaching them to 'give to the pressure'--turning head, slowing down, etc. The lungeing also teaches them about whips--that they are used for cues and give emphasis to your commands. I desensitize them with the lunge whip, running it all over, waving it over, around, and under, under they are standing quietly and with no fear. On some, I will use the whip to move them over, tapping on the side, like I would ground driving(only from the head, not the butt).

Depending on the horse, I usually just stand just to the side(and just behind) the hindquarters, out of firing range, but effective with my reins. Because the horse has enough to learn during this stage, for the first couple of drives I don't actually cue with the whip, but I do hold it, just in case. If the horse seems like it might try to whirl and face you(many do), have a person at the head, walking alongside until the horse relaxes. Have the helper step away until you are the only one there.

Most horses pick up the rein signals very quick. What creates hard mouths is people hauling or using a steady pull--the horse soons learns to brace himself and will not hear anything. Use a gentle bump(and if the horse doesn't hear you, you can make it stronger), and give just a bit with the outside rein to turn, and usually the horse will figure it out. Stopping is much easier if you do have a solid whoa, as you use the reins in conjunction with the voice and learn it. From a walk, even a horse that has no clue what whoa means is easy to stop, and you don't have to be hard or jerky about it either. Keep asking until they give it to you.

However, since you are starting Mingus without prior training to drive experience, using a halter and two lines is probably better, that way you can make mistakes and it won't be as sharp as with a bit.

Before ground driving(with a bit, anyway), I would suggest longeing him in one first(and yes you should use a lunge line...sorry Mingus, suck it up!). That way you can watch him and figure out what he likes. The basic starter bits are usually a half-cheek snaffle, a half-cheek French Link(if you can find one), or a mullen. The reason I suggest half-cheek is so that it is less likely you will pull the bit through his mouth should something happen. Some horses don't like snaffles(pinches or they have shallow mouths or don't like the movement), some don't like mullens, etc. I would probably get him a basic no-pinch curved snaffle.

I measure with a pencil, mark where the other side of the mouth ends, and measure that length. Go a size larger if you aren't sure.

I would start him out in an open bridle(duh, what did you expect from me?)...with a noseband(not tight, he should figure out where his mouth should stay by himself).

As for surcingles...you can just use the harness saddle. Buckle any loose straps and away you go! Surcingles can be helpful...but usually only if you know what you are doing and what you want to get from the horse.

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Well, I've always done everything ar*e about face so why be different here?? A horse will be far more willing to go forward into a noseband than it will a bit- once it is going willingly and smoothly in the halter I will introduce a bit hanging in the mouth- maybe!! I have gone right through to riding and driving without the bit, regularly- it depends on how old the horse is and what it's experience is. With Mingus you have two completely different scenarios- driving and bitting. Me, I would treat them that way and do them separately. The last horse I harness trained was a three year old this Summer. I bred her so I knew her quite well. I took her right through to driving without a bit- it really does work on the trust issues, I find!!- and she was really fine. If you believe the bit will give you more control (sadly mistaken though you may be
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) then by all means use a bit before driving- it is as much about what works for you in this instance as what works for Mingus, as we are all sure that you will never rush any part of his training. This is what I love about helping someone who listens
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I would not give this sort of advice to a lot of people as I know- as we have all too often seen happen- they will rush off with half the advice and make a mess of it all. Susanne, go at your own pace and take Mingus along with you. You know he can be strong willed but once he sees what a good game it will be he will be keen to join in. I measure for a bit as does Breanne, with the pencil, but I also have the luxury of having quite a few I can try out as well. Most harness shops would sell on sale or return, so you do not have to get it spot on the first time. I always start with a full cheek French Link, and take out the noseband- it does nothing anyway- this is a very forgiving bit and can be a little big and do no harm. I find it well accepted too. I have always preferred a full to a half cheek as it gives back up head commands instead of relying purely on the mouthpiece. Traditions differ- I have never seen a half cheek used as a driving bit here, and have never seen one in a harness shop- you tend to use what is readily available, but you can easily get a full cheek mail order. Good Luck with him- he is going to look GREAT in harness. Oh, and , as Breanne, I do not use blinkers/blinders. I always take the attitude that they can go on any time they are needed but, once they are on it is hard to take them off. None of the horses I have trained have ever actually needed them, and none of our harness classes actually requires them, thank goodness.
 
Susanne,

I start every horse with a halter and let them carry the bit without any reins attached. Even my broodmares will ground drive.

This is the easiest way to teach them commands without ruining their mouth.

You can then attach lines to both the halter and the bit and gradually get them use to the pressure of the bit. I have finished them with the halter and actually had them in the cart before starting with the bit and they have a much lighter mouth doing it this way.

Mary
 
HI Susanne,

I also start with just a halter and driving reins. Feel they are more likely to learn things if they are comfortable. Can do months of ground work with just the halter.

Surcingle is fine starting them out too.

Then move from Ground work to pulling a piece of log behind them to get used to the weight of something behind him.

Heck,, there are lots of steps I do to get them ready,, could write a book!!
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I alway do the steady and slow method of training.

Remember I am not to far away from you if you need help.

When Mingus is ready, I have a 3 3/4" Myler bit that he can try out. That way we can figure out what size bit he needs.
 
Wow -- what a wealth of information! Thanks everyone!

You all know me well...I definitely take it slowly and patiently...and I always have to mull things over forever, it seems.

Shari, I'll send you a pm when I get back this evening...when your knee is better, I'd love to take you up on trying out that size bit -- that's actually the size I would expect that he needs.

Hmm...I'm thinking of posting progress reports as we go...keeping an online journal with successes and roadblocks, hopefully getting your continued feedback and in turn helping others to start a horse properly.

Between all of the driving expertise here online, and Shari's expertise close at hand, I feel confident about starting in on the ground-driving. I want to make certain Mingus is trained properly -- he has too much potential to risk anything but the best. While I want to do what I can and be involved all the way, I will not risk ruining him for the sake of my ego, or by thinking I can do it all myself.
 
susanne, I am so excited to watch Mingus' (and your own) progress as you enter this next adventure in your partnership!

I don't have any advice that has not already been mentioned, and I will for sure defer to the expertise that has been offered, anyway, and will read along for my own information! Never too late to learn something new/better.

Good luck w/this and be sure to share pics and anecdotes along the way, we will all enjoy it.

Liz M.
 

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