Is that really registered ?( or are you just saying that )

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Norah

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something is going on here in Europe that has me pulling out my hair ! I wont tell you who or what country , but AMHR ASPC AMHA horses are being advertized for sale for 6 to 8 thousand Euros ...when you look at the pedigree there are no names, numbers , other then maybe the dam , or sire . no registration numbers , and the horse looks an awful lot like a shetland pony mix ... They advertise as Classic American shetland , or ASPC modern pony , and it looks like a water buffalo , of corse no photos clipped or standing at halter , just fat and fuzzy in a pasture. They look healthy and happy , and I am very happy about that . But you wouldnt believe how many people I run into saying that they have a pedigree registered horse , whos parents were champions in USA !!! but they dont have papers , and they say "its an ASPC " but they dont know what ASPC stands for : (

I just shake my head sadly , and feel for the poor sap that buys from these breeders that are mixing breeds , and selling for a high price with fake or no papers at all. It will be interesting to see how many people actually have papers ( real) at the show this month .I really have to applaud our club "miniature horse swiss breeders" we help all of our members with registration , and education . We frown heavily on breeding US papered imported breeds with european mixed breeds : ( we also frown heavily on breeding just for the heck of it .... these horses are very special , and have special dietary , hoof , and stable needs .....we are honest about the birth defects , the difficult deliveries , laminitis etc ..... we also get a very bad rap for this honesty ....I cant express enough the importance of doing your homework before investing thousands of dollars or Euros , on a horse . People double register your horses if at all possible , make sure those papers are authentic ,and please dont try breeding yourself .... let the professionals do this , its hard enough for them . Just need to vent .....

sorry if I offended anyone
 
I know what you are talking about. This is why I refuse to work with CASP. They just keep telling their members that they have pure bred ASPC with ASPIR paper.

I have tried to work with them because now german registered horses with pure and proofed ASPC heritage can be hardshipped to ASPC (like done for years with canadian ponies). They just have no interest in doing that.

We only offer classes at our show for ASPC, AMHR and NSPR horses so we sadly had to refuse some entries.
 
: ( too bad ASPC doesnt have someone to watch over here , as this group is approved by A ___ /A___. I am talking about more then 10 breeders , its not here and there . IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDING IN AN ENTIRE COUNTRY because they think they can do whatever they want : ( Its more then CASP BTW ; )
 
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ASPIR = AMERICAN SHETLAND PONY IR-REGULAR ???
 
"German registered horses can be hardshiped into AMHR " ???? From what I see German regestered horses are mixed Germen bred horses hence registered with the German Shetland or small pony registry . SVPK is the Schweiz Verbend (?) Pony und klein Pferd Swiss Pony small horse club...now there is no possible way you can hardship one of these horses into AMHR/ ASPC Blanco is my Shetland , 32 inches max tall he was in the stud book until gelded .... even if AMHA allowed hardshipping I would never consider it . not one drop of his blood is American , his pedigree is 100% from England .....why on earth would I want to slap an American label on him ? He is English and I am proud of his herritage . The German bred shetland ponys are in no way American , and if there was an ounce of Pure American pedigree in them there would most likely be a paper on that horse . People dont spend 4 grand to import an American miniature horse without papers , unless its a family pet , or a very nice riding horse IMO. Now I have seen these small shetland german ponys ... yes they look like shetlands , furry, fat , sweet , lovable ..... but they are german horses , finished ! I think its a very bad idea to allow forign ponys to be hardshipped into registries, unless , like SVPK they are examined for proper comformation . If this continues Europe will be full of "mutts- heinz -57" breeds , and lord knows we have a million of those already ... and whats with the 7 thousand Euro price tag for a mix breed ?
 
I think she means German registered horses that are descended from American registered stock and only American registered stock. Here in Canada we have the Canadian Pony Society which is the Canadian registry for ASPC ponies. People have imported ASPC ponies and registered them CPS. From there those people have registered their foals with CPS and not ASPC. There might be three generations of CPS ponies on the papers but the fourth generation is all ASPC and so the foal with this CPS pedigree is eligible to get ASPC papers.

I see no reason why it shouldn't work the same way in Germany-as long as that German registered pony is descended completely from ASPC stock he too should be able to pick up his ASPC papers now.

I personally do not bother with CPS papers for my ponies, it is just a lot of extra money to get them and they don't benefit me in any way. But I know people who have CPS ponies and it's nice they can still get ASPC papers on their ponies if they want to.
 
I think she means German registered horses that are descended from American registered stock and only American registered stock. Here in Canada we have the Canadian Pony Society which is the Canadian registry for ASPC ponies. People have imported ASPC ponies and registered them CPS. From there those people have registered their foals with CPS and not ASPC. There might be three generations of CPS ponies on the papers but the fourth generation is all ASPC and so the foal with this CPS pedigree is eligible to get ASPC papers.

I see no reason why it shouldn't work the same way in Germany-as long as that German registered pony is descended completely from ASPC stock he too should be able to pick up his ASPC papers now.

I personally do not bother with CPS papers for my ponies, it is just a lot of extra money to get them and they don't benefit me in any way. But I know people who have CPS ponies and it's nice they can still get ASPC papers on their ponies if they want to.
This is exactly how it works. Here in Germany are quite a few of these ponies. My newest addition, a beautiful 20 y-o stallion, is offspring of an imported mare so he was registered in Germany. The former owner just wasn't interested in registering with ASPC. He is DNA'd and I have sent in the German papers along with the other stuff and now I am waiting to get his ASPC registration.
 
What I see are empty pedagree papers. with no name of the grand sire or dam ...how will you trace this horse back ?
 
how do you keep people honest ? just like the 34.5 inch "AMHA" mare that they breed , and never show ? with that 3 year old being permanant , we have a few 35 inch AMHA mares being bred as AMHA registered : ) dont make me name names

one thing i have learned the hard way ...people are not honest

now that thats been said , the only horses allowed to be hardshipped are the horses that have registration numbers ...so you have a friend with registered horses.... do you use their number ? could people get away with that? I breed my mare with a little unregistered black stallion to "hopefully " get the size down , but write on the certificate that the horse is acutally a double registered black stallion of a friends ... gee that was easy .
 
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Well, people can just as easily cheat with their regular ASPC or AMHR horses; without DNA if someone wants to cheat they can cheat. I guess you cannot guarantee that the German registered pony doesn't have a pony of non-ASPC breeding as its parent but at the same time one cannot guarantee that an imported ASPC doesn't have a hackney parent. All we can do is work within the rules we have.
 
I don't believe that there will be much cheating with german pedigrees. The stallion of mine was DNA'd to proof his parentage to get registered with the german breeding association. You need a registered mare and a form especially for her breedings. You have to pay for that per year. Then the stallion owner needs a licensed stallion with DNA on file. The stallion and the mare have to be evaluated in person by at least two judges of the breeding association. Otherwise no resulting foals will be registered. For the resulting foal it needs to be seen by the breeding association and there is a 20% DNA-testing if the parentage is correct. All horses here in Germany have to have a branding or since last 2009 a microchip for identification. If there are any questions i.e. foal without mare, no breeder certificate and so on there is a DNA-test required to get this foal registered. If a breeder was found dishonest once all future paperwork will require DNA.

So I would say that the pedigrees are quite accurate and trustworthy.

It is much easier to cheat if you file all information for yourself and get back a registration certificate,
 
Could it be a scam to obtain money for horses that are not really theirs?
 
Could it be a scam to obtain money for horses that are not really theirs?
YES...

.I am talking about selling a horse advertized as an ASPC AMHR horse with no registration for 7000.Euro

The popular thing to do here is to write "parents are champions in USA" in English on an otherwise forign writen web page . it makes me wonder if they just copied the writing out of a magazine , or who knows ....because most people here would misspell their English words if they were writing something themselves, you know what I mean. @Jessica, SVPK is also very particular about their registry , horses must be seen measured and looked at by a judge ,many are rejected . This is the way registrys should be IMO I think Germany is probably at the most, as particular as Switzerland , but definatly not more ......they have no Tierschutz , no protection for animals , basicaly you can do whatever you want with livestock -horses in Germany if it legally belongs to you. I know , I have looked into this . We know that many breeders in Germany are cross breeding and still using ASPC AMHR , this is nothing new .
 

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