I really need help with this filly...

[littlesteppers]

until I tell them she has a very BAD mouth. Her bottom teeth they are so crooked I can  not see how she can even eat right. Now why did I buy a horse with a bite like that.

Well I did not I got her in March and now it's so bad I would not even think of buying her. It was perfect in March. She is a minamal dawrf!! I said it out loud. 

454569[/snapback]

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A BAD bite does NOT make a dwarf..it makes a horse with a bad bite.

 

[littlearab]

With Rosie it is not just a off bite.

Her bottom teeth are very bad.. each tooth goes it own way, her top first 2 are the same way.I call it snaggle tooth. It is more then just off. Yes your right every horse with an off bite is not a dwarf ,but it is a conformational issue that is not good, and I believe a horse with it should not be bred, no matter how good the paperwork looks. And it is just one sign of being a dwarf.

She also had a dwarf colt in May,Hobbit.And he had a prefect bite.. but had colic 2 times and had up respatory issues, and other health problems.

Hobbit was a for sure dwarf. We had him put down at 2 months of age, he was suffering too much.

And being that I have been told that one parent must carry the dwarf gene, maybe both. I think My vet and I can for sure say she is a dwarf. Minamal yes but a dwarf.

A dwarf can have a perfect bite also. A bad bite as I understand is just one of the many signs of being a dwarf as is having given brith to a dwarf.

I have no need to ask the fourm if she is.. I know Rosie is.

It was asked if were possible that this horse posted here could be.

 

[Mona]

Tamara, your "Rosie" is not a dwarf. Not even a minimal dwarf. If her bite was good up until March, then something has happened with her teeth...probably hooks or caps, and it maybe can even still be corrected if you get an equine dentist to take care of he now.

 

[Fred]

I don't know if this will be any help but, we have a gelding that was really

malnourished. The former owner did her very best but he would not eat for her.

He just wasn't thriving at her farm [she had a lot of horses]. He came here and

settled in and is now fine. Anyway what I'm getting at is some horses really will

do better in smaller groups or one on one. Once he was in a quieter, smaller

group he started to bloom. Linda B

 

[LisaF.]

I just got home and I must say I am in total SHOCK!

I will state my oppinion and everyone can think what they want.

I want to thank almost everyone for your help, but a few of you have really hurt my feelings and to be honest made me mad. I can tell you I have took notes and I am going to be working with my vet....to see what is the best for this filly.

I DO FEED MY HORSES!...My horses do not know what it would be like to be hungry or without water, or mineral/salt blocks, etc.

My pictures are taken in a completely different place than my horses are. We have SEVERAL ACRES OF LAND. They have pasture, hay, grain, etc.

I thought this forum was for learning....I think we still have so much to learn about dwarfs...and yes...I have questioned for a long time...if this filly was a dwarf. Even though her previous owner said she was not. So, I decided to come here and find out once and for all...if people think she is a dwarf....and for help...that is all I wanted to know.

Debi...I will be honest...I don't know why you got so upset...this mare is pet quality....She is 2.5 years old...Would you breed this mare?......I won't...and I would have to see a world of difference and figure out the real problem before I ever would. I also know that LA requires a chip before transport.

How many times have I heard on this forum....a National Champion can produce a pet quality foal?......I have heard it several times so why is my mare any different?

She does have champion bloodlines....is this mare a champion...NO...but, she is dear to my heart.

As far as conditioning...my fault completely....I will not make her get out and run and run...UNLESS SHE WANTS TOO....I guess in other words she is a little spoiled. She does what she wants to do.

She is in with her 3 other best friends....I stand there while they eat most of the time..( the grain)...but, because I want to...not because I have too. These 4 miniatures are almost the same age and have lived together for 2 years. They get along great. I have even worried about me having to start selling them because they are all 4 good friends. I would rather sell them in at least pairs...but, sometimes that is just not possible.

Do I think this breeder knowingly sold me an unhealthy weanling ...NO I DO NOT.

Would I have sent her back a few weeks after she arrived to the previous owner if possible...YOU BET I WOULD HAVE.

As far as strangles....she had went through 2 weeks of quarentine at my farm...I put her in with the 3 other horses...NONE of them got sick and they were together, eating , drinking, etc. for a few weeks......the burst was up near her mane..I am not sure if that makes a difference or not.

I am sure I have not covered everything because I am so upset.

I came here for help...and I did receive ALOT of help...and to those I truely appreciate it.

Why this started snid remarks.......I HAVE NO IDEA!

I have been in contact with the previous owner off and on through the 2 years I have had her....she offered me a farm credit for most of what I paid for this filly last yesturday.

As far as weanling pictures or any pictures .....what does that really say?...Look at the pictures I posted ..Noone would know they were taken the same day. I will say this filly was a BEAUTIFUL weanling. She WAS BEAUTIFUL the day she arrived at my farm. It was the next few weeks that she went down hill fast and never recovered. That is why I thougth maybe she was a dwarf...the vet has checked kidneys, liver, etc....I can't even remember what all has been tested on her. So, I started thinking...if nothign is wrong with her...than the only other answer was a dwarf.

I was trying to decide to sell her for 500.00 ...that I was offered...or keep trying to help her get better. That is why I came here for help

I can't explain all the history I have had with this mare....but, I can tell you it will be a very long time if ever that I ask for HELP again on this forum.

I love my horses and I do the best that I can with them.

I am sure this is not making much since...I am so upset I probably should not even be posting right now.

 

[Tabitha]

As far as conditioning...my fault completely....I will not make her get out and run and run...UNLESS SHE WANTS TOO....I guess in other words she is a little spoiled.  She does what she wants to do.

I'm a bit puzzled here...no one suggested you should be running or working this horse. FYI "condition" doesn't just mean condition, as in "fit"--it also refers to weight, "bloom" and overall appearance...

As far as strangles....she had went through 2 weeks of quarentine at my farm...I put her in with the 3 other horses...NONE  of them got sick and they were together, eating , drinking, etc. for a few weeks......the burst was up near her mane..I am not sure if that makes a difference or not.

Your description doesn't sound like strangles; while strangles could knock a horse back a lot, I don't know as the effect would last 2 years. I think it would be grasping at straws to say that whatever that abcess was is the cause of her unthriftiness after all this time.

She WAS BEAUTIFUL the day she arrived at my farm.  It was the next few weeks that she went down hill fast and never recovered.

Don't take this wrong, but that statement says something to me. I'm not saying you don't look after your horses well--I'm just thinking that this filly is different from your other horses, and you haven't found the 'right' way to care for her. Was this filly a special pet at her original home? I wouldn't have thought a foal would be that attached to a home or owner, but I do know of one horse that died in a new home, and the vet was positive cause of death was a broken heart. Have you contacted Bonnie about her?
Yes, in your place I believe I would let her go to the person who offered a reduced price. Perhaps in different circumstances, with different surroundings, she will thrive again. Oh, and no, I don't see dwarf, even minimal, in this filly.

 

[Baptism]

Have you considered tape worms or coccidia? (I know I spelled that wrong.)

One of my friends had a very unthrifty goat and it turned out to be a worm that normal wormers didn't cover.

 

[DebiM]

Lisa, I never intended to hurt your feelings or make you mad. I can understand your being upset with me though and for that I apologize.

But I just don't like this type of threads and feel they are unfair to the original breeder. As I said in my post I have seen threads like this before and the condition of the horse was due to the diet/ farrier care etc of it after leaving the original farms.

Let me ask ya'll this. Do you all remember the condition of Lyn's mare when she got her back? What if the folks who had her posted a thread on here just like you did asking if she was a dwarf, why her legs looked crooked, see how horrid she looks............ Well then everyone is aghast at the mare Lyn sold her! That is not what happened though. Lyn posted the pics of her horse showing the condition she was in when she got her back. But opinions could have been very different if the previous had happened.

Lisa, if you will reread my post I also said that I was not saying you didn't care for this horse but that she needed something different. You know I have always liked you and tried to help when I can.

My opinion also is that this filly isn't a dwarf but just needs a change in diet and more aggressive farrier work. I'd take her in a minute and reserve the judgement on future breeding until later.

Debi

 

[RobinRTrueJoy]

Lisa,

Please don't be upset.

I wouldn't "work" her or "conditioner" her if she can't keep any weight on while she is just hanging around, gosh she would be even thinner.

I know how hard you have been trying with her.

I hope that I didn't say anything to offend you.

A horse can start out looking wonderful and end up looking like a dog simply because of health issues. Doen't have to be genetic.

For example, with humans... Remember the poor young woman in Florida that had a heart attack 12 years ago and lasted all this time in a vegetative state, and the husband finally said enough is enough, take out her feeing tube? The rest of the family fought him. The woman died 2 weeks after the tube was removed. Remeber the pictures of her taken before the heart attack, she was beutiful and vibrant, but to look at the pictures of her after the incident, she looked like

she had been born that way, crippled and physically and mentally challenged.

My point is, sickness changes a body. Sometimes a body can recover, sometimes it never does.

No one thinks you starved her. A body can have health issues that simply won't allow it to absorb the nutrients that it has been given.

 

[mountain_waif]

.....

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

WOW i am sorry you are upset but really I dont see anything hear that is directed at you and that implies you are neglecting this horse.

Bottom line is something isnt right she was doing great you said and pictures say as a baby and looked to be in great condition when she got to you and then it went downhill and stayed there.

That is what you stated and leads to believe something isnt right in the way she is using the feed you are giving her

I know that she has been with the other horses for a while but she may need to be seperated at grain time so you can give her more and ensure she is getting it. That doesnt mean you arent feeding or caring for your horses

While it is true that buying a foal any foal is a risk unless you have lots of experience in them and even then... you never know what will turn out but i think what people were saying here is the issue at hand right now isnt pet quality or not pet quality but finding out what is wrong and getting her healthy I know you have done alot trying to find things and there seems to be much more things to look into but keep working at it andyou will find what it is and I do think with weight and muscle this filly will look 10 times better just keep plugging away

Although i have one more question and really not meant to be mean i realize in type it may come off that way so i am telling you NOT how it is meant

but if you had your doubts about this horse as a baby being a dwarf .. why did you go ahead with the purchase and what was it you personally saw in her that made you think she was and then change your mind?

again not asking in a accusatory way but I am just wanting to know what you saw then since we didnt see her then other then a picture or 2

 

[midnight star stables]

Just a thought, As was mentioned(sp) talk to bonnie... she could ask you filly whats wrong, what would help & if she is heart broken. Its worth a try

I am in no way trying to say that arn't doing all you can for this filly... but maybe Bonnie could help?

Please try

 

[disneyhorse]

I have only skimmed what was said here...

My first (and only) advice would be to separate this horse from the other ones... and allow it to have free choice food (of some sort recommended by vet).

Some horses are VERY hard keepers... I work at a place with 26 horses that are occasionally turned out with other horses... some of these horses are hard keepers that also tend to be not very aggressive and don't get their fair share of food when out with the others. They must be separated for eating. Even being separated, these horses eat 2-3 TIMES what the other horses get (both hay AND grain rations) to keep a good body condition. All the horses work the same amount of work.

Your filly sounds like she would GREATLY benefit from not having to ever share her food. Plus you can keep an exact tab of how much food she is getting/eating... you can see if she has any leftovers (they won't be eaten by any other horse) and you can give her much higher concentrated food sources to try to beef up her weight without making another horse grossy obese.

Some horses just require to be separate and eat a special diet.

I have a gelding that can only eat Timothy hay and has a vet prescribed grain ration/supplements. He will probably have to eat by himself for the rest of his life to stay as healthy as possible.

I know it is difficult, because you want her to "stay in with her friends" and you feel like you can supervise her eating, but in reality that is not in her best interest.

Good luck... maybe selling her to someone who has the time or facilities to get her healthy again might also be in her best interest?

I am very sorry though, it does take courage to post pictures and your dilemma as such.

Andrea

 

[RobinRTrueJoy]

Lisa, I don't think you ever said... how MUCH is Idol getting and how often. What exactly is she eating including supplements. Still trying to help.

Thanks.

 

[littlearab]

I'm sorry if what I posted last night upset you..

It was not meant to be mean. Just I see where your coming from. You purchused a very nice filly who should of been top notch and got a pet.. or dwarf I under stand been there did that too. It happens.

One point I did not post last night is also maybe something that will sound mean , but I'm sure it crossed your mind or you would not of posted in the first place.

Being the there are so many health issues with dwarfs, has it crossed your mind that she might be and all her signs are health ones?? or like Rosie will show up later. (I know others say she can't be, but she is no ?s)

To say your not doing everything you can for is so wrong.. you posted here for help. she has been seen by a vet many times. you had lots of tests and are really looking to find her help.

I'm sure you and your vet have tried most everything posted here?? It not like you have not been working with your vet on this..

The filly is at best a pet.... and one with health issues and not matter how well bred should not be used for breeding and you have said many times you know this.

I'm sorry others have taken you asking for the wrong way.. they are missing the point of your post..

You asked for help with the ? of if she maybe a dwarf.. if not any clues to what it could be....

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Lisa If any of the things I said got you upset Im really sorry. I dont see a dwarf here, i posted what I did see earlier. Not accusing you of not taking care of her as you obviously are. I agree with Andrea that this mare should be fed separately and as I recomended earlier a mysolized Sr feed that would be more easily absorbed that Jr or regular feed. I see in the pics a malnoursihed mare with foot and leg problems. The blame isnt yours it is probably her internal system. I would bet she is anemic as Marty suggested and not absorbing and using what she is eating. When you ask us what we see and how to fix it I will tell you exactly what I see and what I would do. I may not be the most popular person on the board but I will always be forthright with you or anyone else. Not out of mean-spiritedness but out of a heart felt desire to be truthful and help.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[LisaF.]

Littlearab or anyone else that has offered help has not upset me in anyway.

The post that have the remarks like I am not feeding her enough or that I havn't done what I can or I was trying to hurt the original breeder those are the ones that hurt my feelings and made me mad. I did not post the breeders name or the horses name...althought at the time of posting I did not think about people recognizing her. I knew a few would..but, only the ones that I have talked to about her. No Debi...I don't remember Lyn's mare.

I will answer a few more questions and state my oppinion and then I hope everyone will let this drop because I am really sorry I posted this thread now.

I hope I can remember everything.

Alot asked about her tail...well...if she could put on weight like she can grow a mane and tail I would be happy...I cut it...and I know it looks horrible...lol..but, I am trying to fix it. It just looked so heavy for a little thing to be dragging around.

Lisa..to answer your question of why I thought she may be a dwarf...and why I bought her....I bought her from pictures...some you see on this thread and several other pictures...the night she arrived my husband told me she was too thin....I said no ..she is bred to be more refined...( he is used to seeing my minis fat)....Well...as time went by and she just kept getting worse..and I couldn't help her and the vet could not help her...and the farrier didn't hlep her....I started thinking she was a dwarf...althought the previous owner said she was not.

I had read in different threads about sometimes you don't know a minimal dwarf from the very beginning...that sometimes it takes time for the signs to show up. I knew she was not a severe dwarf....( I have had one of those a few years ago and had to put her to sleep at 8 months of age..it was heartbreaking)...but, I thought a miniamal dwarf. I did state in my first post that her teeth and head was good...and that I had never heard of a dwarf being skinny...that is why I was confused. She is 27 3/4" ...but, that does not tell me she is a dwarf because many very small minis are not dwarfs. I was just confused and came here for help and I really regret it.

I think this post has done 3 things.......

1)...Most of the post have helped me so much....I can try things now...like red cell, etc....that I had not tried before and now I know to try it.

2) ...It has set dwarves back alot...I think now alot will be scared to ask if their horse is a dwarf ...so, there we go hiding them again.

3) ..If someone has a miniatures and they can't put weight on them or get their legs to straighten...they are going to be scared to ask for help...because A FEW...blame the owner for not doing enough or not feeding enough.

I think this thread has been very helpful and at the same time very hurtfull.

 

[LisaF.]

I did forget to add....ALOT of the post have helped me more than my vet ever has...and I will be trying several of them. Just not at once to overload her.

I TRUELY APPRECIATE the helpful threads..as far as red cell, ulcurs, trying a different grain, etc. MOST of the threads have been very helpful for me and makes me feel like I do need to keep trying different things.

I felt like I was at the end of my rope and did not know what else to do and now I do have several things to try.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

i am sorry you feel people were saying you dont feed enough although that isnt what I read. I think everyone kept asking how much so get a basic idea..

an example is say disneyhorse feeds her horses pounds more then mine get- her horses arent heavy and mine sure arent thin just a different feed, different set up and such

glad you got some ideas

 

[Cathy_H]

She is in with her 3 other best friends....I stand there while they eat most of the time..( the grain)...but, because I want to...not because I have too

Lisa are the horses eating from the same container? Is this filly getting to eat everything from her own feeder? What I am getting around to is if the horses are sharing a feeder or moving from one feeder to the other then that could be part of the problem. One or more of the horses could be picking out all the nutrients, vitamins, the nutritious stuff & this filly could be getting the left overs............... We sold two horses that the owners decided to stall & feed together in two different containers. One was in good weight but the ohter one kept falling off. I honestly feel it was because the one was going to both feeders & picking out the nutritous feed... Once separated the one blossomed again... Best of luck to you.