How about 2 or more foals

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shadyacersminis

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Hi Everyone,

I thought I should share this with everyone, It is very interesting...

There is some new technology in equine breeding taking place at Mississippi State University right now, It is still in the beginning stages but it will soon spread all across the US, They have found away for a MARE to have multiple foals in a single year and not by having twins or triplets, which we are all aware of the dangers if that happened..... you may be saying NO WAY, CANT HAPPEN
right about now but it is true
... They have pioneered a new method of embryonic transfer in equine breeding practices. This may be tough to explain, but I will try my best, I understand exactly how it works, but putting it in words is harder...

Ok, Hypothetically, lets say I wanted to have my 29.5" mare Gracie bred to say my stallion Hurricane, on common breeding practices, you could have a foal by this cross once a year, but with this embryonic transfer, you could have 2 or 3, or even more foals of this same cross in one breeding season, first it would start off with hand breeding Hurricane and Gracie, then I think its somewhere between 7 - 14 days later, you would have a vetrinary clinic then remove the embryo (foal) containing Gracies and Hurricanes Genes that Gracie would normally carry to term and foal, and then transplant it in to a serrogant mare to carry and foal, then on next heat cycle, you would rebreed and repeat this process all over in another mare.

This new breeding practice could be used with all kinds of benefits to the smaller horses, Even though I used Hurricane and Gracie as an example, I couldnt actually breed them because of the size difference, with Hurricane around 33" and Gracie at 29.5"., Hurricane is just to big of a stud to breed to her without a big risk, but with this new practice, You COULD actually breed them and then transplant into a larger mare around Hurricanes size, but yet the foal is still genetically Gracies and Hurricanes and would be the same foal that Gracie would have delivered... so If we wanted to incorperate larger horses confirmation traits, that size would normally not allow, you could now do it at the same time working on breeding down to get a even more refined smaller horse over time....

Another benefit is if you have a really expensive mare, and if something happens to her during the foaling process, you could really take a hard fall on it, but with a less expensive serrogant mare, you wouldnt have as much of a loss if something happened.. Not to sound cruel or anything, Its hard for me if something happens to any of my horses, but its a fact of the business, then one of you expensive top quality mares isnt damaged for life and worthless.... There are many other benefits and situations for this, but I want to keep this as short as possible..

The AQHA has already accepted this as a breeding practice and can be used, and the foals by this process can be registered with them..... This technique is already also being used by large and small horse farms around the southeast with great results, but not alot of clinics are set up for it yet and cant offer it, but from what Ive seen on it, that will soon change... Ive seen a couple good segments on the news and RFD-TV about this and how it is now starting to spread and be recognized.... Anyway, I think that it is very interesting to know how breeding is changing with moderen day technology.... This technique could be very worthwile in some situations.... but Im sure AMHA and AMHR would take thier sweet time researching and studying it before it was ever accepted and you could have a registered foal with them from this...
 

mcharr36

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It's called embryonic transfer and has been around a few years. Most registries don't allow it. Yet.

There is also another way. If you can get your mare bred so that she produces one foal in early January, you can then breed her on her foal heat and deliver the resulting foal by Christmas. Happened to me.
 

shadyacersminis

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I understand it has been around, but im sure there are alot of people that still do not know about it, I think that it will be great for improving the Miniature Horse breed, The more people that know about it increases the likeleyhood that the registries will take it seriously as a way to improve the breed.... It seems to just now be starting to get the attention that it needs.. If AMHA and AMHR does pass it down the road, I will definately incorperate it into my breeding program to improve it.... I havent been on here much in a while, So I dont know if it had been mentioned on here before, but I thought I would bring it up incase some people dont know about it.....
 

justaboutgeese

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During the mid seventies I worked for a "syndicate" that pioneered embryo transfers in dairy cattle. Holsteins to be specific. This group had on staff vets and fertility specialists, their own labs and clinics, big money stuff. They bought some of the finest examples of Holsteins in north America and treated them to increase egg production then flushed the eggs. Fertilized them in petri dishes again with some of the finest bulls semen available then implanted the embryos into beef cattle. It was possible to have large numbers of offspring from each cow. This group kept the cost down by doing it all in house. This was an investment syndicate (Beatle John Lennon was one of the investors and bought several of the farms himself) Did it improve the breed at all ? who really knows. But stop and think about what it means. What would be the advantage of having 250 Buccaneer stallions in a year. Other than lower its worth to the owner because one is valuable, 250 of them are worth a bit less. But it did make it possible for more farms to have strong bloodlines to build their herds on.
 

Robin1

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geese beat me. I was going to say that the cattle industry has been doing this for quite some time.

My thought is : You shouldn't mess with Mother Nature... Eventually she gets mad.

Robin
 

rabbitsfizz

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This is NOT progress. It has not worked in dairy cattle- it might work in beef but there is really no need for it there. In horses it is a NIGHTMARE. The Miniature Horse and Arab lines (The only two I know intimately) are already inbred so much in the popular ( expensive) lines that to have one mare produce ten foals (there is no limit to the number of foals- you harvest the eggs and fertilise them outside the mare, not naturally) a year would be a catastrophe. There is also th proven fact that full siblings are completely different. Anyway this is very old news- they have long since moved, God Help Us- on to cloning!!!! NOT a place I want even to VISIT!!!
 

Beccy

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I understand what you are saying William, but I personally agree with Jayne and Robin, and think that we humans mess about with nature too much.
 

lilhorseladie

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I think this is an interesting concept. It is hard to believe it would work and yes, it would allow for a mare to conceive more babies, which would make her almost as valuable as the stallion. Is it good to be going inside her monkeying around all the time? In human embryo transplants have to be repeated often. And, just using Lyn's case...what if you breed this unlikely pair and there are two embryos in the womb...if the second one isn't found...

Like I said, it is interesting and it would open up possiblilities for using a mare. I also wasn't aware that it was being used at all...I'm closed in a box here in Nebraska.

The major benifit I see from this, would be you could be making babies and showing your breeding mare...not looking like a brood mare! I too sometimes think that we mess around with nature too much, but I would be interested in learning more about the process.
 

ivytoro

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Robin1 said:
My thought is : You shouldn't mess with Mother Nature... Eventually she gets mad.

Robin

447711[/snapback]

 

Whitestar

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I think this issue came up before AMHA a couple years ago & was voted down. Having seen what embryo transfers did to the Boer Goat industry made me realize it would not be a good idea. It sounds great in theory, especially if you have the breeding/foaling problems "reason" behind the miniature horses, but it allowed the Boer industry to flood the market with "purebreds" & caused them to be a dime a dozen. One female goat could be super ovulated with drugs & you could produce 50-100 offspring per year out of surogate mothers ( cheap spanish goats). Within 2 years, goats dropped thousands of dollars in value. With the miniature market already down a lot over what it was 10 years ago, it seems like strict control over the best breeding stock would keep the value up. Is your champion mare's offspring worth more if you allow 1 offspring a year, or 10? The quarter horse industy was working with this, ( I think) allowing 3 foals a year to be registered by transfer. I remember some big controversary & lawsuit regarding it, just cant remember all the details. Although I am not in minis anymore, I am still very interested in the industry & dont think this would be a good idea if you really consider the whole picture.

Debbie
 

GREENWOODMINIS

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I am not one to usually posts on these types of posts but, I just have to say....IMO...humans, don't need to be doing Gods work.

Whats wrong with the old fashion way...years of careful, thought out, eduated planning to improve our breed?? slowly, carefully!!

The Miniature horse breed is fairly young...I do think we are improving with each passing year....the world and national show tells all...wow...some amazing horses...and, better every year.

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shadyacresminis quote...

so If we wanted to incorperate larger horses confirmation traits, that size would normally not allow, you could now do it at the same time working on breeding down to get a even more refined smaller horse over time....

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I guess, I am wondering then what would happen to these even more refined smaller horses over time...they certainly, could not be bred and foaled out the old fashion way.

This seems to be a nightmare in the workings.

I so, am not trying to flame...I am just not seeing the benefit to the miniature horse.
 

rhea

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Hmm..yea I've heard of this too, actually I was considering trying it with my WB mare so that I could show her. But in research, another major downfall is the current cost...she's our biggest mare at 16.1hh, so we'd have to buy a larger surrogate mare, then noone in our area does it in horses so we'd have to ship her, the Vet we talked to said that without the cost of the surrogate mare or the stud fee, we could expect $15,000- $20,000 in vet fees for the procedure


I also don't agree with the mass breeding, I wanted only one foal out of her, not 50.
 

Kendra

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We do embryo transfer quite a bit at the clinic where I work. The costs vary depending on how many times you have to flush to get a viable embryo, but it is certainly no where near 15-20000!

ET works best with a young, fertile mare, one that's currently showing and too busy to have her own foals. For example we had a Swiss Warmblood mare who competes in Combined Driving who was only 4 when we first started doing ET's on her. She came three years and was at the clinic for the early spring and then could go back and compete through the summer and fall. Over the three years she ended up with 6 beautiful foals on the ground, sired by some great WB stallions from Europe via frozen semen.

Often though, the mares that come in for an ET are older mares that the owners want to get one more foal out of, the thought being that she's conceiving, just unable to maintain the pregnancy. With these mares, there is more often no embryo to recover, or one that isn't very viable and doesn't maintain in the recipient.
 
L

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis

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I think at this point the cost is a bit hefty and hopefully enough to keep everyone from running out and doing such. I dont think it is a bad thing or will be the downfall of the breed or anything and again think cost will keep most owners from using just any mare to get many foals from.
 

sfmini

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The AMHA Board of Directors approved a study funded 100% by Joan Richards of Olympian Ranch. She has mares in foal with transferred embryos as we speak.
 

Chandler@RoyalPalm

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Well I just want to say this in my opinion and I am not up to date on info on this study, but let me start out by saying this. EVERYTHING has good things which come with the bad things.

Really stop and and think of what the potential of this could be. I KNOW AWESOME mares that would benefit this breed but unfortunatly are not able to carry a foal to term. Im talking National Grand Champion quality that is really a shame. NOW if we are able to use embryo transplant and get some foals out of that mare just think that could be the next Buckeroo, Rowdy, Boogerman, and so on. 2. This could benefit prior show mares that are hard to get in foal. Down to little mares, Mares with small cervix's and so on.

I can hardly believe that this market can get "flooded" with more horses to due to fact HOW MANY OF YOU have a vet in your area that could handle taking on this chalange? Needless to say I bet it IS NOT an easy thing to accomplish, as its hard to enough to do AI in minis, unlike many other breeds, as minis tend to be a little harder to work with shipping semen and just getting mares in foal in the back yard. Unlike the other breeds who were flooded they didnt have that issue. 2. Im sure only a few select people could have the extra resources in this industry to go out and do this on a large scale. So with that being said it would be worked for increasing their show programs and not wasting money to flood our market.

Please just dont stop and discredit something your not use to since its newer in our industry. Times are changing and we need to keep our breed up to date and continue growing to produce a higher caliber horse. THERE still is SO MUCH room to grow.

Regards,

Chandler M Marks
 

rabbitsfizz

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The whole point I would think, about your statement is " cannot carry a foal to term"!!!! What on earth are we doing here??? If the mare cannot carry a foal, I am very much afraid I do not want her foal, especially if it is a filly!! This is being done as we speak in big horses, with success- mares that are competing are having a couple of foals whilst doing a complicated dressage test or jumping high jumps!! Presumably these mares are breeding sound! A little while ago $22,000.00 was paid at auction for a transferred embryo inside a donor mare. The price was paid for the embryo, unsexed, alone. I'm afraid I do not even want to go there, let alone visit.
 

CharmedMinis

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I think it could be a very good thing if used in the right way.

There is a pinto Tennessee Walking Horse operation called Scripps Miramar Ranch near San Diego, CA, that have been doing this for years. They use unregistered QH mares as the recipient mares to get foals on the ground by their big time show mares.
 
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Horse Hugs

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just what the miniature horse breed needs- more breedings!!!! Every day on the sales boards horses are practically being given away and so many minis are ending up in bad situations.

I can just see Whoopi breeding her litter box trained mare so she can have 50 of them.

Just because it might be expensive doesn't mean it won't be abused. I have seen more abuse cases coming from people with a lot of money than I have seen coming from people who are on tight budgets.
 

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