HELP - kicking mare - vicious kick

[MInx]

HEY MARTY! I could have used you on my grandsons a few years ago

Love your attitude! And I agree wholeheartidly! Maxine

Sounds like she had to fight for her food in the past.
She is doing this because SHE KNOWS SHE CAN!

This horse should come live with me for a week.

She would be tied up in a stall. She would be tied up everywhere, in each field, in the barn, and to every tree I could see. Tieing up a horse makes them submissive. She would not be loose period and I would camp with her. She would be fed with me right there in her face too and one false move from her and the food would be removed quickly such as what KK does.

When she would kick at me, I would turn her whole world upside down and inside out and insight a riot. And no I don't beat on horses and don't even own a crop but I darn sure will correct one that is a threat to my body. But this is one time when I would completely spank those back legs, while they are "in progress"  up in the air, and with it at the same time, be screaming at the top of my lungs and completely let loose on her with a really big loud angry voice. I think using a big voice makes a great impression. I would also do a whole lot of pushing and shoving her over from side to side with both my hands to further impress on her that I am in control of her body, not her. This should work.

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[midnight star stables]

I would not breed this mare.  She might kill her foal.  It is also not a quality one would want in offspring.  I think sometimes behavoir is attributed to abuse and it is nothing but plain old, in-born orneriness.  Just like people.Marsha

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IMO..

No

she said that it was a sweet mare.. i would not breed her at this time, she might easaliy kill her foal now.. but if/when she heals & is sweet again i see no problem..

i can't see it being passed down.. unless she is bred now or never healed from kicking..

i think either pain or "i know i can get away with this!!"

i hightly dought she is bad or mean

SHE NEEDS A LITTLE HELP(sorry caps

).. thats all

IMO desiree

 

[Cathyjo]

The mare is fantastic (and not even overly protective) with her foals - and produces really nice quality foals. I have a yearling colt out of her; this year Brenda said that she didn't get out to break the sack and they lost a little pinto filly. She has been an excellent mother in the past - and that was after the accident. I do believe Brenda is being truthful with me but she is afraid of the mare. However I also know that Brenda's daughter and husband, not horse enthusists, also help her and I'm wondering if something has occurred there. This mare does not act afraid of my husband at all though.

When we had our first "kicking" episode it was a day after I had had her. I had brushed her and petted her previously, led her around on her lead rope, even fed her with no problems. I thought the same as some of you are thinking - Brenda has gotten scared of her and she knows it!! However, the third day, I had petted and talked with her and put her food down as usual. As I was petting her, she suddenly whirled (I was on her good side by the way, but she doesn't show any partiality to sides and may even be able to see out of the other one a little) and started kicking at me the way she would another mare - that rapid, keep coming at ya' kind of kicking. I had a aluminum shovel handy - light weight not heavy at all - and gave her a smack on the rear (still on good side) raising my voice to her - but she continued coming at me. I used the shovel as a block for the next 7 or 8 kicks, then she just suddenly stopped and walked off and turned and looked at me. I waited a few seconds, then slowly turned my BACK to her and walked the 5 feet to the gate. I knew I needed to show her she had not driven me out and that I was not afraid (but I was shook - have never had one come at me that viciously). I went back about 20 minutes later and was hand feeding her and about the fourth time I offered a hand full, she suddenly turned and kicked again. After that, she tried to run me out of the drylot. Again, I left when she had backed off and I could turn my back on her (briefly!!) and leave in an "in contol" manner.

Later that afternoon, she was absolutely a pussy cat, even when feeding her again (I had removed the food from the first time). She has been the same since, even acting sweet with my husband who had not been working with her at all. She is not a dominant mare with the other mares - I put her in with two of my well behaved ones and doted on them so she would see what I expected - LOL.

This morning, when I wasn't feeding at all just giving everyone fresh water, she again turned her rear to me about 10 feet from me and laid her ears flat. I scolded her but she started backing toward me. I was just figuring out what I was going to do when my 25 year old mare got between me and her and turned HER butt to her. The new mare immediatly backed off and about 5 minutes later came up to me wanting to be petter! I petted her and she again acted just fine.

The grain we feed is Strategy or Mother Natures Essentials Born to Win, so I do not think it is the grain - and they do not get very much. I use the Born To Win or Purina Athelete if I have one that doesn't react well to carbs or is foundered.

This really has me confused. I will get her an appointment this week with the U of I and have an MRI done if possible. If that shows nothing, I am going to see if they can repair her eye or remove it if they think it is necessary.

I do realize that even if there is something physically wrong that can be fixed - I think I am in for some "retraining" (I've also used the "marty" method before with success - and very little "violence" on my part - LOL) but I have to eliminate any physical aspect first. If it is permanent brain damage, they I have a hard decision to make. I'm praying against that. She is a very nice mare and if at all possible I want to keep her.

Again, thanks for everyone's input - it is all useful to me.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

C-J PLEASE get Bonnie to "read" her first- you do not have to believe, it is a fraction of what you will pay at the Uni, she does not claim to work miracles, BUT it is worth the money!!!

 

[ChrystalPaths]

Fizz you are in my head! CathyJo Please! Get a reading done by Bonnie. $45 is nothing compared to what an MRI can cost. I had a closed head injury 10 yrs ago. It took me 5 yrs to recover. She could have both physical and emotional problems. Can you post a pic of this girl for us to see? Pretty please?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

This morning, when I wasn't feeding at all just giving everyone fresh water, she again turned her rear to me about 10 feet from me and laid her ears flat. I scolded her but she started backing toward me. I was just figuring out what I was going to do when my 25 year old mare got between me and her and turned HER butt to her. The new mare immediatly backed off and about 5 minutes later came up to me wanting to be petter! I petted her and she again acted just fine.

Wow, I would be petting that old girl for sure! The heck with petting the snotty one.

A horse who will protect you against another one is worth their weight in gold.

For what it's worth, while I am not the devotee that the others are I would also say it's worth $45 to check with Bonnie. A LOT cheaper than the MRI as a starting point, and it might give you some insight on what to have the vet start testing.

Leia

 

[ChrystalPaths]

CathyJo I just went back and reread this thread. When your mare got hurt....what type of vet care did she recieve? She could have cracked her eye socket bone, suffered a concussion as well as the eye damage. Was her eye scoped to see how badly hurt she was? I'll go away if you like but this mare has a problem that training and dominance will not cure IMHO>

 

[Miniv]

For what it's worth, while I am not the devotee that the others are I would also say it's worth $45 to check with Bonnie. A LOT cheaper than the MRI as a starting point, and it might give you some insight on what to have the vet start testing.

Leia

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No, you don't have to be a "believer" of what Bonnie does. But I also think she is a good place to start and may be able to narrow the field for a vet or a lab on where to start their search. Bonnie never discounts the value of veterinary medicine but tries to work WITH it.

PLEASE consider Bonnie as another avenue in your search to help your mare.

MA

 

[Marty]

Cath......please please please get that mare away from the rest of your horses at once. Put her all by herself in a stall. She is a danger to you and to them. You are playing with fire and you are scaring me half to death.

 

[blueprintminis]

OK, first I'm putting on my flame-proof suit. O.K., done. I had a small pony mare who was 10 inches taller than my largest mini. She decided she would be alpha mare and since she was larger with longer legs she could kick harder and be farther away when she did. She decided one day that she was also dominant over me and she turned her butt to me and backed up kicking out with both hind feet and squealing. I had no "weapons" in my hand so all I could do was kick her back. Well, I quickly decided that there was no way I was going to win this one so I had to exit the area. (You know, fight or flight.) Well you know what that meant. It meant she won. Well, the next day when I got in her "area" again, she turned her butt to me again and started backing up and of course I left again. You can see how this mare was now "boss" over me too (in her mind, not mine!) Well, I could have taken an axe handle out with me next time and beat her to death, but I worried that she may still come at me so I went to TSC and bought an electric (battery) cattle prod with a 30" long reach. The next day when I went out back to feed here comes the "boss" mare, turned her butt to me and I popped her with a good old zap from the prod. She jumped 10 feet forward like she had been shot out of a cannon, stopped, turned and looked at me like I had killed her.

I was able to go about my chores without her coming near me again. I carried the prod with me everytime I went out and a few days later she tested me again. Once again all it took was one zap and honestly after that this mare ALWAYS made sure she was facing me when we were within 25 feet of one another. I never had to use it on her again.

Your mare may have something "wrong" with her physically but her behaviour, no matter what the cause, is dangerous and she needs to stop it immediately. If you were closer, I'd loan you my zapper because it is just sitting in an unused corner of the barn.

Oops, forgot to add that once, stupid me, touched myself with the prod. Yow! I jumped about 10 feet too! It felt about like touching a live electric fence. ZAP!!! I know that once a horse touches an electric fence wire it doesn't take them long to stay the heck away from it.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

That's all very well, but, if this mare IS suffering from brain damage and/or mental issues, shoving a cattle prod into her rear end is going to make the situation much. much worse, as she will have no idea why she is being hurt!! A large number of people are treating this as a dominance issue- which it quite clearly isn't. C-J has stated that the mare is NOT dominant with the other mares and actually backs down as soon as one of them tells her off. Neither is it an issue with C-J she can handle her some of the time normally. I would lay money this mare has serious health issues. Marty is right, stall her- within sight and sound of the other horses as you are not trying to punish her, get Bonnie to "read" her and go from there. I would also keep a breakaway halter on her with a short lead attached , all the time. I have only ever had to deal with something as bad as this once- it was a big horse and it nearly killed me trapping me in the corner of it's stall, It waited it's time and it MEANT it. I managed to bluff my way out. But that was a BAD mare, no health issues, a nasty piece of work, no doubt.

 

[ChrystalPaths]

Sigh.....hello? CathyJo?

 

[ChrystalPaths]

bump

 

[ChrystalPaths]

I keeep thinking about this mare...can you update please?

 

[whitney]

Let the horse teach itself not to kick.

Get a dog choke collar attached it to a small nylon dog collar right above the hock. Make sure the chain just reaches the ground so they don't step on it.

This does not hurt the horse it just scares them, couple times of them wapping themselves and they quit.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

I've had the same problem with our youngest QH mare, and it's terrifying. We raised her from a foal, and she is not dominant with the other horses. (I know a lot of people don't think yours is a dominance issue, but I'm sure you've changed your herd up before, and two submissive mares *will fight* to determine who is bottom, and I can't help but think maybe sometimes she takes your affection and feeding as a sign of submission.) I can't vouch for your mare, but ours has had no head trauma, and I for one have never given her reason to *snap*. One moment she's a pussycat, next I'm dancing with her back end. She doesn't give the usual cues--pinning the ears, switching her tail, and in most instances there was no food involved. I do think, for whatever reason, that she is trying to be dominant over me, and I think it's my fault. I am the boss with all of the other horses, but I have babied this mare her whole life, and I'll be honest, starting from when she was little I let her get away with a little here a little there. Introduce someone new, and if they lay down the law first thing there's not a problem--our vet, our farrier, an old farmer down the road--she tags along with them like a puppy, but they've seen her turn on me when they're outside the pen, and all of them agree she's trying to dominate me. I have slowly been reasserting myself. Slowly because I want every encounter to be in my favor, and cannot do something as dynamic as what Marty suggested without endangering myself. I hope you can find a way to do the same, and I'm interested to hear what Bonnie comes up with. Best of luck--even with a little one I know it must be unnerving.

 

[Marty]

Yea Fizz, no one has any idea yet if this is a brain damage issue or an issue of dominance, so until that has been established, CathyJo and her's there are really in harm's way. I'm wondering just how many times this mare has changed hands? She could really be protesting being moved around a lot if that is the case. I'd be looking on those regsitration papers very closely and making some phone calls to try and learn whatever I could about her background.

'Whitney, In a case such as this with this mare's back legs flairing through the air, who's going to be the guinea pig and volunteer to put kicking chains on the horse? Not I> furthermore, they don't really work too well and the horse can just end up capping a hock wether it's put near the hock or ankle and I don't think in this case, I'd be doing it.

Rockriver:you said:Introduce someone new, and if they lay down the law first thing there's not a problem--

Good call.

I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone hollars at me that their horse is trying to kill them and when I get there I can't get the horse to mis-behave for me at all. Maybe I'm more ugly than I thought and just the sight of me makes them submissive. It's a lot like sending your kids to someone else's house.

"My my your boys are so well behaved" and I'm like "HUH? Are we talking about the right kids?"

Bottom line here is that the horse is going to be putting a hurting on someone or another horse for whatever reason she has, and it's up to Cathyjo now how much she can handle.