MiLo Minis
Well-Known Member
I was looking at Heindl show carts in Ohio. Does anyone on here have any experience with them good or bad? Are they well balanced? Well made?
Heindl show carts
- Thread starter MiLo Minis
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Christie
Active Member
I have no experience with their show carts but I do have a mini training cart made by them. I LOVE IT!!! Very well balanced and very well made, IMO.
I had a Frontier EE cart and didn't like it, so my opinion may not be that of most. With our hilly and rough terrain, I alway felt like I was going to tip in the Frontier, never actually did but I had a few closer than I like 'almosts". The Heindl training cart is a very comfortable ride. In fact the cart exceeded my expectations.
I would have thought that you could tell these kinds of things from pictures, as you have in the past.....
Seriously it sounds like a well made and supported rig.
Bb
MiLo Minis
Well-Known Member
Bob just because I don't endorse a cart that I feel is quite potentially dangerous doesn't mean that I can look at a photo or two and see that it is a truly well made, well balanced cart. It does sound like a decent vehicle but unlike your Hyperbike I have no experience with a Heindl at all - haven't even seen one in the flesh so to speak. I can see that with this cart I don't have to put myself into an unusually dangerous position to mount it.
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We have owned a couple of the heindl training roadster type carts and have loved them. My husband is 6 foot 3" tall and all legs could drive in that cart and be comfortable. We sold our A sized driving horses and moved up to Bs. We sold the carts and wouldnt u know it now I have an A sized nice driving mare. Im sure I would love one of their show carts.
MiLo Minis
Well-Known Member
Thanks Christie and Hairicane! Sounds like they do a good job on their training type carts so hopefully they put as much or more into their show carts. I have gone ahead and made plans to pickup the cart I have been looking at - I will let you know what it's like once I try it out. Thanks again, Lori
i had one of these carts in b sized with 24" closed wheels. it was well made and rode smooth but was a little tall for my taste. it isn't quite as nicely finished as a houghton or jerald but it is a very nice cart and will show well at worlds or nationals.
Double Diamond is selling these as their black diamond show carts.
Double Diamond is selling these as their black diamond show carts.
MiLo Minis
Well-Known Member
Thanks Keely. I went on Double Diamond's site and couldn't find it, did see where they had a "Black Diamond" cart but couldn't find where they had it for sale. I am looking for an A cart because we already have Kim's Jerald for the bigger horses so hopefully this one will fit the bill and will go to Nationals.
My apologies Miss Lori. I could have sworn that you said you evaluated our rig via pictures that a friend sent you. I'll need to go back and verify that in the archives to be sure. In that post you made several assumptions that were also not true. But the tidbit I was searching for became obvious. It all seemed to boil down to mounting and dismounting. As this is something we cover in full on our website, in person or by phone and by all of our folk showing and using the rig, this revelation by you as to your safety concern made it a moot point and most importantly a safety concern of a personal nature. This is why I did not respond at the time. I merely wanted to know what the issue was because safety is the biggest concern we have for the horse first and then the driver.Bob just because I don't endorse a cart that I feel is quite potentially dangerous doesn't mean that I can look at a photo or two and see that it is a truly well made, well balanced cart. It does sound like a decent vehicle but unlike your Hyperbike I have no experience with a Heindl at all - haven't even seen one in the flesh so to speak. I can see that with this cart I don't have to put myself into an unusually dangerous position to mount it.
Perhaps as a "disclaimer" you could word it as "I am uncomfortable with..." vs. the blanket statement of "its unsafe". because obviously it is not unsafe. And even though the mount/dismount procedure is different, a GREAT many more sales than you give us credit for CLEARLY demonstrate that the procedure is not "unusually dangerous" as you claim. It IS different and requires a higher level of training to be a safe rig for horse and driver specific to mount/dismount. That's why we refuse sales to beginner drivers and horses. Had you called me you would have known this.
This time around, I commend you for seeking input from users of the Heindle. Also calling the mfr and asking questions, can be another source of information to you. I would like to think that most of us are open and honest in our dealings and questions, even hard ones are welcome.
It does sound as though you have chosen an excellent rig and I look forward to hearing about how you like it and adventures you have with it.
Bb
Graham Carriage Works
www.grahamcarriageworks.com
MiLo Minis
Well-Known Member
I did initially evaluate your cart from photos. It was while studying the photos that I began to wonder how the heck you got in the thing. I asked and was told the method of mounting and dismounting was to get in the shafts between the horse and the frame. I have since seen a couple of them in person and still maintain that they are less safe than most carts.
The hyperbike was a neat concept and I looked into them for myself out of interest. It was only when I realized that the seat back is upright and can only lay forward and the only way to enter the cart was to get INTO the shafts with the horse that I thought - ARE YOU INSANE???
My horses are taught a good solid whoa and I could get into or out of the cart a thousand times without incident but that one bee or dog or blowing garbage could easily get you killed when your horse bolts and drags you hung up on the cart and mixed up in his heels and those kind of things you can't train for. No horse is going to stop easily with you banging around under there.
I just hope that whoever it happens to LIVES to regret it.
That kind of thing could also happen when you are getting into any cart but with most carts if you are stepping in and the horse bolts you are going to go arse over teakettle BACKWARDS OUT of the cart or sit down suddenly. If you have prepped your reins properly before mounting and end up in the seat you are going to be able to stop your horse fairly quickly and without incident hopefully. If you get pitched out of the cart you suffer a few bruises and can likely easily drive again although your horse may or may not depending on whether or not you hung onto your reins and can get him stopped fairly quickly. Yes mounting or dismounting any cart is the most dangerous time but why would you want to compound the danger by such an unsafe method of entry.
I am glad to see that you have added a couple disclaimers to your website regarding how your horse MUST be trained to stand quietly and they aren't considered a "training cart" and I like to think that perhaps my thoughts on the hyperbike helped you to decide to do that.
Hopefully the disclaimers will make at least some people think twice. The thing that worries me is that I have seen it recommended many times to beginners here on the forum and they don't necessarily know what to think.
I don't know you personally but you seem like a nice man and you have built an interesting little vehicle. If you ever come up with a better seat arrangement that will allow entry from the rear so that you are left on the ground in case of emergency I would be interested in trying it out but until then......"I am VERY uncomfortable with the method of entry...."
The hyperbike was a neat concept and I looked into them for myself out of interest. It was only when I realized that the seat back is upright and can only lay forward and the only way to enter the cart was to get INTO the shafts with the horse that I thought - ARE YOU INSANE???
That kind of thing could also happen when you are getting into any cart but with most carts if you are stepping in and the horse bolts you are going to go arse over teakettle BACKWARDS OUT of the cart or sit down suddenly. If you have prepped your reins properly before mounting and end up in the seat you are going to be able to stop your horse fairly quickly and without incident hopefully. If you get pitched out of the cart you suffer a few bruises and can likely easily drive again although your horse may or may not depending on whether or not you hung onto your reins and can get him stopped fairly quickly. Yes mounting or dismounting any cart is the most dangerous time but why would you want to compound the danger by such an unsafe method of entry.
I am glad to see that you have added a couple disclaimers to your website regarding how your horse MUST be trained to stand quietly and they aren't considered a "training cart" and I like to think that perhaps my thoughts on the hyperbike helped you to decide to do that.
I don't know you personally but you seem like a nice man and you have built an interesting little vehicle. If you ever come up with a better seat arrangement that will allow entry from the rear so that you are left on the ground in case of emergency I would be interested in trying it out but until then......"I am VERY uncomfortable with the method of entry...."
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RhineStone
Well-Known Member
I have probably said this before, but I find those highly popular mini easy entry carts to be highly unsafe, ESPECIALLY with their smooth vinyl seats. My mom has one of those carts, and I struggle with how to drive the horse and not slide all over the seat at the same time without the use of some vinyl shelf liner under my butt. And there is virtually nothing to put your feet on to brace against. Never mind that the ride stinks, as well. Every major bump is applied to the horse's mouth and his body. How anyone gets any effective training done in them is beyond me. There is NOTHING that will keep you IN the cart!
Easy entry is also easy exit! You are almost always safer if you can stay with the cart than if you are ejected. And staying with the cart is ALWAYS safer for spectators, as a loose horse with a weapon attached is definitely a safety hazard! If you can't stop the horse from the box, you sure aren't going to do it by getting out of the cart. I have seen some great horsemen stop a horse after being dumped from the cart, but I have also seen novice drivers watch their cart get trashed while the horse runs loose because they "let go".
I will never go back to a flat vinyl seat. It better be cloth or have the security of a marathon wedge-like seat. It's like having a car with air conditioning. Once you have it, you will never go back. Give me a Hyperbike over those crappy easy entries anyday, but then again, I'm not a green driver...
I know of some big horse carts that require you to step on a foot pad on the axle, swing your leg over the back of the seat or bring your foot up between the wheel and the seat. THAT is a disaster of an entry method. Last year, I was a groom for a George IV Phaeton, and had to somehow crawl into the dickey seat while squeezing between the seat and the hood that was down, and try to get my tails smooth at the same time. Once, the horse moved off at the wrong time. I know why the groom's boots are the tall "hunt type" ones, because my calf got smacked by the wheel! The George IV is a four-wheel vehicle that requires that the driver mount in between the wheels, as most four-wheelers. You are SOL if the horse moves off while you are there. Actually, anytime you mount in front of the wheel, you are risking getting ran over. If you mount from the rear, you risk the horse moving off before you can get settled! My point is that all carts/vehicles have their inerrant risks.
The best thing to do? Teach your horse to stand well, as Lori mentioned. Teach your horse to trust you even if something bad happens (bee sting, etc.). Don't jack with your horse so that he doesn't trust you. Don't "fuss" when entering a cart. Get on with it and get seated as quickly as possible no matter how you get in. Get good equipment. Get educated!
Myrna (who wrote more for the masses than for Lori....)
i'll preface this with a comment on my disappointment that this forum is being used to attack each other,
then move on to comment on the above OFF TOPIC posts (reminder- this thread was about a show cart not a hyperbike),
and finally get on my soap box to have a turn ranting
i would LOVE to have a hyperbike!!
i find it no less safe to mount than so many other carts on the market today.
unless you buy an easy entry (which is much less safe once you are in it), you have to step over or into almost any cart.
Being close to the horse without a crossbar is traditional (and not seen as particularly unsafe) on most race bikes and sulkies.
With any cart, you will have moments entering/exiting where you are less safe than if you were seated in the cart driving.
i agree with the statement that it is not a beginner or training vehicle
and that the horse should be trained to stand for mounting and dismounting
but
SHOULDN'T ANY HORSE WE HOOK TO A CART AND CALL BROKE BE TRAINED TO STAND STILL WHILE WE GET IN THE CART!
this is one of my pet peeves with mini people in particular
at shows (all the way up to nationals) i see way too many "broke" horses who will not whoa and stand
headers are a great safety but shouldn't be required to keep a horse still or lead it to the ring
i attend cde shows and see multi hitches pulling carriages standing still without headers
why can't/ won't many mini trainers teach a horse to stand?!
its a safety issue REGARDLESS OF THE VEHICLE
a fidgeting horse while hitching or mounting can quickly lead to a catastrophic accident
even my most hot chariot horse, who was previously used for harness racing,
understands that she has to stay still while you mount and dismount her cart.
i have no exceptions for anything in my barn:
if it is a broke horse, i expect it to stand stock still until i say otherwise!
i have far too many children and handicap people come drive with me to tolerate misbehavior and/or inadequate training
then move on to comment on the above OFF TOPIC posts (reminder- this thread was about a show cart not a hyperbike),
and finally get on my soap box to have a turn ranting
i would LOVE to have a hyperbike!!
i find it no less safe to mount than so many other carts on the market today.
unless you buy an easy entry (which is much less safe once you are in it), you have to step over or into almost any cart.
Being close to the horse without a crossbar is traditional (and not seen as particularly unsafe) on most race bikes and sulkies.
With any cart, you will have moments entering/exiting where you are less safe than if you were seated in the cart driving.
i agree with the statement that it is not a beginner or training vehicle
and that the horse should be trained to stand for mounting and dismounting
but
SHOULDN'T ANY HORSE WE HOOK TO A CART AND CALL BROKE BE TRAINED TO STAND STILL WHILE WE GET IN THE CART!
this is one of my pet peeves with mini people in particular
at shows (all the way up to nationals) i see way too many "broke" horses who will not whoa and stand
headers are a great safety but shouldn't be required to keep a horse still or lead it to the ring
i attend cde shows and see multi hitches pulling carriages standing still without headers
why can't/ won't many mini trainers teach a horse to stand?!
its a safety issue REGARDLESS OF THE VEHICLE
a fidgeting horse while hitching or mounting can quickly lead to a catastrophic accident
even my most hot chariot horse, who was previously used for harness racing,
understands that she has to stay still while you mount and dismount her cart.
i have no exceptions for anything in my barn:
if it is a broke horse, i expect it to stand stock still until i say otherwise!
i have far too many children and handicap people come drive with me to tolerate misbehavior and/or inadequate training
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RhineStone
Well-Known Member
.Completely agree. I think the reason why mini people tolerate this is the same reason that drew them to minis in the first place. They are "cute". If it was a 16HH warmblood that was wiggling around, it wouldn't be so cute.....SHOULDN'T ANY HORSE WE HOOK TO A CART AND CALL BROKE BE TRAINED TO STAND STILL WHILE WE GET IN THE CART!
this is one of my pet peeves with mini people in particularat shows (all the way up to nationals) i see way too many "broke" horses who will not whoa and stand
headers are a great safety but shouldn't be required to keep a horse still or lead it to the ring. I attend cde shows and see multi hitches pulling carriages standing still without headers why can't/ won't many mini trainers teach a horse to stand! It's a safety issue REGARDLESS OF THE VEHICLE.
Minis are still horses.....
Myrna
hobbyhorse23
Well-Known Member
I'm with you, Keely, and love Myrna's interesting examples of mounting risks in traditional carriages.
What a fascinating discussion!
I didn't know better when I first had Kody; it literally never occurred to me that a horse could be taught to essentially groundtie with a cart attached. I assumed you needed a header or must be actively holding them still with the reins. It was a shock to me when I took my first formal lesson at the Driving Training Center that they put the Fjord on a Whoa, Stand and proceeded to hitch up. Period. They told that harnessed horse to whoa in the middle of the driveway and walked away and got the cart out of the barn and walked back up and put the shafts in the tugs. Then they took ahold of the reins again just for safety but that horse was expected to stand like a rock until told otherwise and did so quite cheerfully. My eyes were like this:
. She told me that there is no excuse for a driving horse to require a header and if my horse wasn't at that level yet I should get him there in a hurry. Once I knew what I should be working towards I had him trained in a week but it hadn't occurred to me until then that I should be doing that. I expected him to have manners but not to stand still without anyone "reminding" him about it.
I've been working on Whoa, Stand with Turbo in the context of obstacle and halter work for over a year now but last week he got his first notice that I expect those lessons to carry over to driving. He did so well ground-driving that I stopped on the spot to unharness him as a reward and decided to begin as I mean to go on- I put him on a Whoa Stand and expected him to plant himself and not move while I removed the surcingle and lines. It took him a few moments to get that he still has to stand even if I'm touching him and fussing with him but he got it and my two year old stood there like a rock, loose, while equipment he was wearing for the first time was removed.
but for the bigger horses it's that belief that a hot horse is a good show horse.
We train our horses to do this stuff- to anticipate leaping forward when the person hits the seat or to stand quietly, to blow up and be firey and almost run the header over or to not require a header at all. People like to see that sort of behavior in a show horse because it's, well, showy.
It's also a pain in the rear! It's like allowing race horses to bite because correcting them would "break their spirit." Riiiiight.... You've already taught them to turn it on for the show ring and turn it off in the barn. Why not teach them to turn it on only after they're allowed to move?
Leia
I didn't know better when I first had Kody; it literally never occurred to me that a horse could be taught to essentially groundtie with a cart attached. I assumed you needed a header or must be actively holding them still with the reins. It was a shock to me when I took my first formal lesson at the Driving Training Center that they put the Fjord on a Whoa, Stand and proceeded to hitch up. Period. They told that harnessed horse to whoa in the middle of the driveway and walked away and got the cart out of the barn and walked back up and put the shafts in the tugs. Then they took ahold of the reins again just for safety but that horse was expected to stand like a rock until told otherwise and did so quite cheerfully. My eyes were like this:
I've been working on Whoa, Stand with Turbo in the context of obstacle and halter work for over a year now but last week he got his first notice that I expect those lessons to carry over to driving. He did so well ground-driving that I stopped on the spot to unharness him as a reward and decided to begin as I mean to go on- I put him on a Whoa Stand and expected him to plant himself and not move while I removed the surcingle and lines. It took him a few moments to get that he still has to stand even if I'm touching him and fussing with him but he got it and my two year old stood there like a rock, loose, while equipment he was wearing for the first time was removed.
I see this more in the show Shetlands, Hackneys, Saddlebreds and Arabs than in the straight minis. Trainers ignore it in the minis because it's so easy to just pick them up when they flip over
We train our horses to do this stuff- to anticipate leaping forward when the person hits the seat or to stand quietly, to blow up and be firey and almost run the header over or to not require a header at all. People like to see that sort of behavior in a show horse because it's, well, showy.
Leia
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I am glad that you got to actually see a rig as this is better than looking at pictures. While getting closer to the ideal way to form an opinion it still falls short imo (disclaimer).I did initially evaluate your cart from photos. It was while studying the photos that I began to wonder how the heck you got in the thing. I asked and was told the method of mounting and dismounting was to get in the shafts between the horse and the frame. I have since seen a couple of them in person and still maintain that they are less safe than most carts.
The hyperbike was a neat concept and I looked into them for myself out of interest. It was only when I realized that the seat back is upright and can only lay forward and the only way to enter the cart was to get INTO the shafts with the horse that I thought - ARE YOU INSANE???My horses are taught a good solid whoa and I could get into or out of the cart a thousand times without incident but that one bee or dog or blowing garbage could easily get you killed when your horse bolts and drags you hung up on the cart and mixed up in his heels and those kind of things you can't train for. No horse is going to stop easily with you banging around under there.I just hope that whoever it happens to LIVES to regret it.
That kind of thing could also happen when you are getting into any cart but with most carts if you are stepping in and the horse bolts you are going to go arse over teakettle BACKWARDS OUT of the cart or sit down suddenly. If you have prepped your reins properly before mounting and end up in the seat you are going to be able to stop your horse fairly quickly and without incident hopefully. If you get pitched out of the cart you suffer a few bruises and can likely easily drive again although your horse may or may not. Yes mounting or dismounting any cart is the most dangerous time but why would you want to compound the danger by such an unsafe method of entry.
I am glad to see that you have added a couple disclaimers to your website regarding how your horse MUST be trained to stand quietly and they aren't considered a "training cart" and I like to think that perhaps my thoughts on the hyperbike helped you to decide to do that.Hopefully the disclaimers will make at least some people think twice.
I don't know you personally but you seem like a nice man and you have built an interesting little vehicle. If you ever come up with a better seat arrangement that will allow entry from the rear so that you are left on the ground in case of emergency I would be interested in trying it out but until then......"I am VERY uncomfortable with the method of entry...."
Also, fear of a possibility tends to lock one in place vs preparing and training for all hazards as well as that possibility.
As we all grow and learn, we should be improving. While the bike came out quite some time ago it was time in grade that taught me how and whom this vehicle would work well with. That was several years ago and was included with our new site some 4 years ago. So I don't think I can credit you with that change, but I would if it had been you because I learn all kinds of stuff from all kinds of people.
"The thing that worries me is that I have seen it recommended many times to beginners here on the forum and they don't necessarily know what to think."
Well if it is done, it is not done with my blessing. Also, in the end, I have the final say as to who buys my products. I simply would defer the sale to such time as I felt that they were ready. I do it all the time. It permeates the entire process. I have turned down MANY sales for this and other ethical issue's over a good many years. Having ones character impugned unfairly tends to get ones back up. I guess the direction is generally better when your creation is refereed to as "interesting" as opposed "that thing" or my personal favorite "that birthing the mini look" However its not just interesting, it's a game changer completely. The positive effect for the horse is the baby being thrown out here and to be right honest, that ain't fair to the horse (IMO)
Yes I try at all times to be a nice man because I answer to a much BIGGER man. You do make assumptions about me and what I do that are misplaced and in some cases just false. I really haven't had to work for the reputation I have. It is simply who I am.
However Miss Keely is correct this was about the Heindl(sp?) and should remain so.
I really do think you have chosen a great vehicle and I do look forward to hearing about it. Did you mention color schemes you are considering? What colors are you putting to?
Bb
Graham Carriage Works
www.grahamcarriageworks.com
My attempt
why can't/ won't many mini trainers teach a horse to stand?!
its a safety issue REGARDLESS OF THE VEHICLE
a fidgeting horse while hitching or mounting can quickly lead to a catastrophic accident
Well said Miss Keely,
MANY times training issues are misplaced and blamed on things that have no relevance to the core issue, that being, training or a lack thereof. If your horse is not standing after you have given the command to stand, this is a training issue and should not be blamed on anything else the (1 in a 1000 thing aside).
Whether in a Heindl or any other rig the proper thing is to have the horse reliably stand. It is the proper thing to do.
Bb
its a safety issue REGARDLESS OF THE VEHICLE
a fidgeting horse while hitching or mounting can quickly lead to a catastrophic accident
Well said Miss Keely,
MANY times training issues are misplaced and blamed on things that have no relevance to the core issue, that being, training or a lack thereof. If your horse is not standing after you have given the command to stand, this is a training issue and should not be blamed on anything else the (1 in a 1000 thing aside).
Whether in a Heindl or any other rig the proper thing is to have the horse reliably stand. It is the proper thing to do.
Bb
RhineStone
Well-Known Member
We train our horses to do this stuff- to anticipate leaping forward when the person hits the seat or to stand quietly, to blow up and be firey and almost run the header over or to not require a header at all. People like to see that sort of behavior in a show horse because it's, well, showy.It's also a pain in the rear! You've already taught them to turn it on for the show ring and turn it off in the barn. Why not teach them to turn it on only after they're allowed to move?
They should take some lessons from Boyd Exell. Watching his (and other WEG drivers') horses at WEG proved that you can teach them to "turn it on" and "turn it off". And one of the WEG drivers had this awesome gray who was just explosive across the arena! It gave you chills to watch!
Myrna
[/QUOTE]
I am a firm believer that horses can be trained to "turn it on" ONLY when requested. My horses are good examples of this.
Lightning can go from single to country to western pleasure just by how you drive him.
And I'm not talking about just switching classes but having a truly competitive horse (on a national level) in all 3 divisions.
I can take him to an ADS fun show and run him through multiple classes of cones and hazards and in between expect him to babysit (walk, trot slowly and calmly on a loose rein) with my paraplegic friend who is a novice driver, then pick it up again when I get back in the cart for my next class.
At Nationals one year I was galloping around one of the back arenas with him one afternoon and another driver commented that he wasn't my chariot horse. I responded that no, he was my western horse. They could not believe that a horse so hot and so amped who would run flat out would show in western. I asked them to watch me for a minute. I ran accross the arena yelled whoa without pulling the reins and then said trot easy. Lightening went from a gallop to a whoa then jogged off on a loose rein with his head level. The lady was amazed. Lol
Tippy, a former harness racer, turns it on and off even better than lightening.
She went from calm and docile in the PMC class with a novice paraplegic driver to amped for chariot on command. I only had a tack hold between the classes- no time to even drive a circle to check my tack.
She is happy to mosey along and give cart rides, fall asleep hooked to her cart watching the horseshow, or run a cones course.
You can train them to be what you want them to be when you want it but it takes a ton of training.
Lightning can go from single to country to western pleasure just by how you drive him.
And I'm not talking about just switching classes but having a truly competitive horse (on a national level) in all 3 divisions.
I can take him to an ADS fun show and run him through multiple classes of cones and hazards and in between expect him to babysit (walk, trot slowly and calmly on a loose rein) with my paraplegic friend who is a novice driver, then pick it up again when I get back in the cart for my next class.
At Nationals one year I was galloping around one of the back arenas with him one afternoon and another driver commented that he wasn't my chariot horse. I responded that no, he was my western horse. They could not believe that a horse so hot and so amped who would run flat out would show in western. I asked them to watch me for a minute. I ran accross the arena yelled whoa without pulling the reins and then said trot easy. Lightening went from a gallop to a whoa then jogged off on a loose rein with his head level. The lady was amazed. Lol
Tippy, a former harness racer, turns it on and off even better than lightening.
She went from calm and docile in the PMC class with a novice paraplegic driver to amped for chariot on command. I only had a tack hold between the classes- no time to even drive a circle to check my tack.
She is happy to mosey along and give cart rides, fall asleep hooked to her cart watching the horseshow, or run a cones course.
You can train them to be what you want them to be when you want it but it takes a ton of training.
Though this thread was originally about a show cart then
Really though, the great thing about this forum is that everyone can post their opinion. I have learned alot from the more "seasoned" people and really appreciate everyones input especially on the driving subject.
Cheers
Really though, the great thing about this forum is that everyone can post their opinion. I have learned alot from the more "seasoned" people and really appreciate everyones input especially on the driving subject.
Cheers
