Gray Gene/White Markings on Face/Body in Horses

[Eagle]

I sold a grey mare last year cos 3 out of 3 foals greyed out within a year. Would this be just her passing on the grey gene or did my stallion pass it on to ? (sorry, I am very ignorant when it comes to colour)

Stallion is black minimal pinto but I think he is sabino too as he has white hairs with his summer coat.

I will be testing him soon so I am just curious.

 

[Ashley]

It would be the mare not he stallion. Grey does not hide, if he had if he had it he would be grey.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

From what I've read there is a fine between minimal 'normal' white and white markings caused by one of the Sabino genes and of course other pinto genes

Have you got any links that talk about it all being pinto? Would be interesting to read

There are no "normal" white markings, that was my point. I know it is a bit of a shock to the system to come to terms with something as radical as this seems when you first come across it- I am having the same problem with Appy, but, having had a full Appy foal (DNA tested as I did not believe what I was seeing) from a solid, non-characteristiced mare, and a stallion who only has characteristics in hindsight, I have had the "new" thinking proven to me.

It has been accepted for some years now that all white markings on a horse are caused by Sabino, Splash or, occasionally, Tobiano (but you do not get the face white with Tobiano.)

If you look at TBs and Arabs, who have no Tobiano and in whom for years, too much white was suppressed by breeders, then look at the sudden explosion of colour/pattern once the suppression was lifted and the patterns encouraged, you will see what I mean. There is NO Tobiano in Arabs, yet we now have Pinto Arabs due to Splash and Sabino being encouraged- from a start of only white socks and blaze faces.

Eagle- unless your mare was H/Z grey she would only throw 50% grey- but, unfortunately, some animals just seem to like to get their quota of grey out of the way in one go, as it were. If I had a mare that threw only grey but was h/Z, and I liked that mare, I would hang on to her, but this is why I would not have a grey stallion.......

 

[supaspot]

Ive just bought a new grey mare ! under the grey she is red and white and carries silver , I agree with RF ..Im happy to have a grey mare but wouldnt want a grey stallion

 

[Wings]

I just can't agree with all white markings being cause by some pinto gene.

And yes I understand we do see a lot of bling appearing with minimally expressed patterns (most likely a sabino form), I have two min. marked tobianos and two min. marked splash's here so I'm used to explaining how they really are pintos, but there is a lot about white markings we don't understand yet.

Look at Scamper, his clone has different white then him and we are yet to truely understand how this white gets places especially since this horse is the genetic twin of Scamper.

But you wouldn't say my solid pali with one white star is a min. pinto.

 

[barnbum]

Ashley--she can be a silver buckskin AND also have the grey gene. As I recall, Karla's mare is most definitely grey, I remember photos of her being posted on the forum & she was a silver buckskin going grey.

Exactly--silver buckskin going gray. And dun.

One foal was a silver buckskin, another a true buckskin, and then there's Tucker--and I think folks call him a silver smokey black. What a fun mare!

 

[Songcatcher]

I just can't agree with all white markings being cause by some pinto gene.

....

But you wouldn't say my solid pali with one white star is a min. pinto.

A white star is a minimal expression of some Pinto gene. It may be Sabino, Splash, or Frame (or possibly some as yet not named gene).

A white coronet is a minimal expression of some Pinto gene. It may be Sabino, Splash, or Tobiano (or possibly some as yet not named gene).

 

[MBhorses]

A white star is a minimal expression of some Pinto gene. It may be Sabino, Splash, or Frame (or possibly some as yet not named gene).

A white coronet is a minimal expression of some Pinto gene. It may be Sabino, Splash, or Tobiano (or possibly some as yet not named gene).

hey what does white blaze means

 

[Wings]

A white star is a minimal expression of some Pinto gene. It may be Sabino, Splash, or Frame (or possibly some as yet not named gene).

A white coronet is a minimal expression of some Pinto gene. It may be Sabino, Splash, or Tobiano (or possibly some as yet not named gene).

Do you have any links for this though? I'd be very interested in reading it. I get involved in some regular colour conversations with some friends and brought this up the other day but no one had read anything at all saying that any white marking is an indicator of pinto.

Although food for thought one person put this forward:

"but in regards just regular white markings, the reason clones and identical twins can have totally different markings is because the gene is passed on for white markings, but its NOT the gene's that determines where those markings appear - its a combination of uterine conditions, the way the foal is laying in the womb, temperature etc nutrition during pregnancy etc a whole variety of things that determine where the white ends up being placed. So the clones/identical twins both are genetically identical, so they both inherit the gene to give them a white marking of some sort, but you cannot identically re-create the same uterine conditions, even for twins sharing the same womb they are in different spots, different positions, one may be getting less of something than the other etc. so youthere fore cannot identically replicate the process of where the white appears. "

hey what does white blaze means

http://en.wikipedia..../Horse_markings

 

[MBhorses]

What does the white blaze on face mean?hey thanks for link. i was meaning pinto or etc gene?

 

[Wings]

What does the white blaze on face mean?hey thanks for link. i was meaning pinto or etc gene?

I think that's partly what some of us are debating

Personally, if I just see a white blaze I just consider it a blaze and not pinto. Although I do look for frame, splash or sabino in the pedigree. In their minimal forms they can look a lot like regular face/leg markings.

 

[Minimor]

I just can't agree with all white markings being cause by some pinto gene.

Apparently they are.
I was in Morgans for years, and at that time white legs and white faces were just that--white markings--because Morgans didn't come in pinto. High white wasn't allowed, so any foal with a white belly patch or high white on the legs was not eligible to be registered. It was therefore gone from the gene pool. If breeders got multiple foals with high white from a particular breeding animals, they stopped using that horse for breeding as there is no point raising foals that cannot be registered. The high white rule has since been rescinded and there are now a few Morgans with high white on the legs and/or white patches on the belly--I haven't heard of any loud pintos yet, but who knows in the future. If leg/face white turns into pinto coloring, then it was pinto genes causing those white markings all along.

And like I said--my loud pinto mare is sired by a stallion that has no white except for some white legs--and not high white either. His mother was a pinto but his pinto genes expressed themselves only as some low leg white--yet he can sire LOUD white markings.

I have a filly that is the result of mating two sabino pintos--both parents have high white legs, belly/body white and white faces. The filly came out with no white other than a big star. If I were to breed her sometime in the future it wouldn't surprise me if she were to have a foal that has high white and a bright white face--her star indicates that she has sabino

 

[Songcatcher]

Do you have any links for this though? I'd be very interested in reading it. I get involved in some regular colour conversations with some friends and brought this up the other day but no one had read anything at all saying that any white marking is an indicator of pinto.

Try this link for the simplified versiion: http://songcatcherranch.webs.com/horsecolorgenetics101.htm Within that page are links to more detailed information.

 

[Songcatcher]

hey what does white blaze means

Same thing as a Star. Maybe Sabino, maybe Splash, or maybe Frame.

 

[Songcatcher]

This thread has really gotten off track from the original question, but when people talk about "normal" white markings, I like to show this example:

This stallion:

Bred to this mare:

Both have what many people would refer to as "normal" white markings. They produced this foal:

The sire is lab tested to carry Frame (LWO) and the mare is lab tested to carry Tobiano. The foal carries both (lab tested positive for Frame).

 

[Wings]

Try this link for the simplified versiion: http://songcatcherra...genetics101.htm Within that page are links to more detailed information.

Thanks, I'll dig through those

 

[midnight star stables]

I really find that the more I learn, the more questions I am left with. I am also one who believes all white markings are pinto. While there may not be a test to prove they are (yet), there is also not a test to prove that they are not.

I wonder how well LWO, Splash, Sabino and Tobiano can really hide... If one is not visually Frame, but tests positive, who's to say it's a sock or a star? What if it only needs to be one single hair? And IF a pinto marking could truly hide that well, think of the thousands of potential horses who can be carriers that go untested/unknown (for ANY pinto marking).

Now there is currently no test for splash, so lets assume if it's similar to the Sabino gene that there are multiple strands... What if one strand produced the "classic" Splash markings, but another strand produced blue eyes... And what if another strand produced white leg markings and another strand produced white face markings, both of which are often just viewed as "normal" markings. Lets say there is a plain jane QH with a star and a sock, that tested negative to all current pinto genes. It doesn't mean the horse is not a pinto, but rather that there is not yet a test available to provide proof.

I just can't agree with all white markings being cause by some pinto gene.

And yes I understand we do see a lot of bling appearing with minimally expressed patterns (most likely a sabino form), I have two min. marked tobianos and two min. marked splash's here so I'm used to explaining how they really are pintos, but there is a lot about white markings we don't understand yet.

Look at Scamper, his clone has different white then him and we are yet to truely understand how this white gets places especially since this horse is the genetic twin of Scamper.

I often think about Scamper and his clones. I would LOVE to see a LWO+ horse and a Tobiano horse both cloned multiple times. I'd be fascinated to see the differences in their patterns and of course see that they all tested positive (knowing they should) for their various patterns.

A white star is a minimal expression of some Pinto gene. It may be Sabino, Splash, or Frame (or possibly some as yet not named gene).

A white coronet is a minimal expression of some Pinto gene. It may be Sabino, Splash, or Tobiano (or possibly some as yet not named gene).

Again, this is something I believe to be true...

Of my miniatures I own two very loud pintos and two very minimal pintos (and two "unknowns"). Of my "loud" pintos, I have a Frame+Sabino(with partial blue eyes) and a Tobiano(grey). Of my minimal pintos, I have a black mare with a blaze and two socks, with Sabino "Gulastra Plume" (white hairs in her tail) and a belly spot smaller than the size of a dime, which I only noticed when her winter coat came in and she had long white hairs that where much easier to see/notice. The other is a solid with a blaze and a sock, also a Sabino "Gulastra Plume" and at least a 1/4 blue eye; this horse is also out of the frame mare listed above. By just looking at these two horses, most would call them solid, but with close examination I can "prove" that they are pinto. My unknowns are "normal" solid horses, and while they have not been tested, they visually present nothing that could "prove" that they are a pinto. One is a chestnut going grey with a snip, four socks and brown eyes, he is pretty "normal" looking in his markings. His dam and his sire both have "visual" pinto markings and easily accepted as pintos. My colt is "just" a solid with the markings he presents with, but I still believe that he is a pinto and could produce louder markings than his own if ever given the chance (which won't, since he's to be gelded soon

). My other "unknown" is a solid perlino. He appears to have no markings and blue eyes that are related to his delute gene... Possibly the only "ture" solid in my herd?

I just shared my examples to say that even if a horse is solid, sometimes a closer look can prove otherwise. If I am ever financially able, I will test all my solids to see it they test positive with the current tests (SB1, LWO and Tobaino).

I find colours and pinto markings absolutely fascinating. I look forward to the day when there are many more tests available than there are unanswered questions.

Thank you for such a great thread.

 

[midnight star stables]

Try this link for the simplified versiion: http://songcatcherranch.webs.com/horsecolorgenetics101.htm Within that page are links to more detailed information.

Songcatcher, what a wonderful resource! Thank you!

:yeah

 

[Wings]

I do believe that white markings are caused by genetics, like everything else on our horses.

But I hesitate in labeling white markings as pinto because I feel it implies that the horse is minimally expressing somthing that isn't there.

My Pallidon has a white star, nothing else, and does not have the ability to pass on any louder pattern because of it.

But my min. Splash mare with her star, stripe and sock CAN pass on much louder versions of her splash gene.

So maybe white markings will at some point be proven to be part of the collection of pinto genetics but to call them minimal pinto I feel is not correct. There's a world of difference between minimal tobiano and white socks.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I just can't agree with all white markings being cause by some pinto gene.

And yes I understand we do see a lot of bling appearing with minimally expressed patterns (most likely a sabino form), I have two min. marked tobianos and two min. marked splash's here so I'm used to explaining how they really are pintos, but there is a lot about white markings we don't understand yet.

Look at Scamper, his clone has different white then him and we are yet to truely understand how this white gets places especially since this horse is the genetic twin of Scamper.

But you wouldn't say my solid pali with one white star is a min. pinto.

Yes, actually and, as far as we know, in fact, she is. I have a Splash mare who has a small white star, but she is definitely and proven by breeding to be a Splash mare. I also know of at least one minimal Tobiano stallion (three white socks) who throws fully expressed pattern.Freeland (Songcatcher) has a SOLID stallion who is proven by testing to be LWO (He also has a true Black and White stallion who is Smoky Black but that is another story.)

We are pretty sure we do know why a clone does not have the same markings as the original, btw- it is fairly well documented and if you come over to Equine Color it can be explained to you.

This is something that has been accepted for years. There is NO such thing as "normal" white markings. Google it and you will see what I mean. Any white on an animal that is not the result of injury is caused by Pinto.

I am not sure how I can put this any plainer- you are perfectly free to ignore that facts as you wish, just as you are completely at liberty to believe the world is flat.

(sorry, that last one came over snippy- not intended to be, but it is so long since I have come across anyone who was not aware of these facts I just do not know what else to say....)