Got my new cart, harness.. and no success....

[Minimor]

It is definitely a no no to walk behind the cart and drive the horse--for safety reasons you should never do this. It is all too easy for the horse to take off and pull the lines out of your hands and be gone. If you must walk the horse home you should be at his head. If it were me I would probably unhitch and pull the cart myself while leading the horse.

 

[PaintMeFancy]

Thanks for the advice - I will do that next time..

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Where you moving to?

Lakeport, but I'll be making some trips out to Yuba City, Grass Valley and Auburn periodically to visit other horse friends and am open to travel. It's fun to meet new people!

I was actually taught to drive from the trainer from behind the cart with her... however we were out fairly far and didn't have much choice unless I wanted to drive back in the cart with the funky wheel! I guess I could have kept her hitched and walked her from the head instead? Not sure which would have been better.. Kind of wanted to watch the harness while driving so I could see if anything was off or too tight, etc.

Boy do I know how that goes! Technically the right answer is to unhitch and either pull the cart back yourself or come back for it later but with a wheel problem I'd probably have done exactly what you did and ground-driven home. I just wanted you to be aware of the safety risks so you could be prepared! As Minimor said, the horse can pull the lines out of your hands and take off (usually leading to finding them stuck in a fence or tree or ditch somewhere, thoroughly traumatized), they can back suddenly into you causing knee or other leg injuries or knocking you over backwards, they can spin suddenly into you going sideways and again knock you backwards under the cart...all of these have happened to people I know and have almost happened to me except that I was careful and lucky and hadn't put my horses to the cart until they could be controlled even in a panic so a Voice Of Thunder "WHOA!!!" got them to stop before I got hurt.

I've still had some close calls though and the bigger the horse, the more risky it is. That's why the iron-clad rule from full-sized horse driving with traditional heavy carriages is to NEVER ground-drive with the cart attached. Many mini trainers do it and I think they're taking that behavior from other fine-harness/sulky hitches where it's traditionally acceptable, probably because sulkies and show carts are so much lighter and lower (no seat back to catch the reins and obscure your control if the horse suddenly turns or spins.) I do it, but I'm fully aware of the risks I'm taking and have no one but myself to blame if something happens.

I wouldn't be comfortable leading a hitched horse from the front but that's partially because I'm a small person and would have to stay too close to those nice rib-breaking shaft tips to properly control the horse. If I had longer arms and more strength I might try it, but I have no urge to be gored and then run over if the horse gets away from me!

Needless to say - talked with the lady who wrote the above 101 iva email. she was super nice and very informative. I think we figured out what may have been the issue

Jaye is a wonderful person, I'm glad she was able to help you.

What I am worried about/discouraged - is that I wanted to do this with my 2 yr old in the cart with me. I rarely get horse time without her and this was suppose to bring horses back to me - now I am worried I won't feel safe with her with me while driving.

Hmm, that's a tough one. Two is a bit young to be safe in a horse-drawn vehicle because she's not old enough to jump out on her own in case of emergency and you'd have to handle both her and the horse at the same time. That's tough for anyone, even Superwoman! You don't want to secure her to a carseat-type contraption on the vehicle as then if the horse bolts she goes with it. You also don't want to ground-drive with her in the cart for the same reason. The driver should always, always be in the vehicle with reins in hand before any passengers get in, especially children. (Sorry, this is the safety patrol person in me coming out!) I'd say she could go along with you when she's able to sit on the seat by herself and follow instructions to dismount immediately without you helping her but I'm interested what other people, particularly parents, have to say about it. I sympathize with your frustration! Can she help you groom and harness and at least take rides on your mini?

Leia

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I also will ground drive from behind my cart .. BUT.. I only do so using my extra long training reins that actually drag at least another 6 or 8 feet behind me when I do and I do so in an enclosed arena. I think Leia has pointed out the dangers of leading a hitched horse or driving from behind the cart but as horse owners/handlers we sometimes make choices based on what seems a reasonable thing to do at the time. As to why your horse behaved as she did, I can only guess but I wonder if she objected to moving the cart with your weight in it. If I read your description of events correctly she bucked and reared when you were in the cart and then was calm and accepting as soon as you got back out. I would try to have a second person (competent adult) lead her ahead while you were in the cart to 'unstick' her and see if that helps. On the subject of your daughter riding in the cart with you, IMO your horse is not solid enough to chance driving with your little one on board at this time. If she has had previous training, has done well and is just needing a refresher after a layoff then it might not take too many miles to make her trustworthy again but if she is green she may need more time to become steady enough to take your daughter along. If you choose to drive with her it would probably be a good thing to get her a helmet and have her wear it every drive and try to choose your route with safety in mind, avoiding places with steep ditches, trees/fences etc as much as possible.

edited to add, I would look into getting a kicking strap for this horse as well just as an added safety feature.

 

[PaintMeFancy]

I feel like I should give some background on this mare and maybe me! I bought this mare because of her experience and temperment. She is boring to me - however safe for my daughter. She has driven since she was 2 and is now 10 and done this her whole life. She was even giving beginner driving lessons. She is well seasoned and the type when you ask for something wrong she stops and waits for you to figure things out and goes from there. I was SHOCKED when she did what she did it lasted maybe 20 seconds in reality - but seemed quite a long time for me.. however I was able to calmly step out of cart - a firm GYPSY WHOA - with a snug rein and she was clam and collected instantly - I honestly believe this mare had something wrong - truly had enough - we drove quite a bit that day with 2 adults plus my daughter in the cart just fine -

I really really appreciate the advice - but as far as safe - this mare I think is as safe as they come - she acts like a half dead 20 year old --- I have been around the block with horses - just not minis and this mare just doesn't overreact because of nothing - she is the type to "spook" in place if she isn't sure of something planting four feet (not even a jump) and just look waiting for her command. She is fully trained with voice commands (ha, gee, whoa, back, come, etc) -- I can drive this mare with no rein (probably why I felt no hesitation behind the cart) --- this is a mare that you have to convinience to stop (more whoa then go type)--

I am almost 100% sure something is wrong with her set up - the part that worries me with my daughter is knowing she did this once - if she gets pinched or whatever again - she could do it again - my daughter stands to side and waits for me to get into the cart and then comes in, She ALWAYS wears her helmet when around horses (ground, saddle, cart, etc) -- she loves driving, riding, grooming, etc - she has been around my big guy since she was 6 months old and been riding since before she could walk (I think she mounted her rocking horse before walking lol) - so while I go back and forth on how safe it is for her - it would be driving and getting her out. I feel I could have stayed in the cart and got a hold on gypsy, but felt more comfy outside of the cart. So, I got out - my daughter was on someone elses lap and they got out with her as well. The cart was at a standstill.. I think my initial post probably made it sound much worse then it was - her bucks/kicks were not even as high as the seat and the rear was only 10" maybe? I forgot perception in writing is different to everyone.. My biggest worry is just what some mentioned - getting her out of the cart if something happens.

Needless to say - I would like to hear about if you drive with your smaller children./grandchildren (say under age 5) .. what have been your experiences?

Personally I don't want a lead line pony - if that is all I wanted to do (I get bored and well I am lazy) -- then I would have done that with my old man (my paint) - she is around him and I feel safe enough doing that with her - just not in the saddle with me on him outside arena - if outside arena - she is leadline. So if I can't drive with her or feel safe, the pony won't be staying probably....

I do not want anyone to think I am not listening - I love the feedback and thinking very critically about everything mentioned. I know what the mare did was unsafe -no questions asked, but I do think it is my fault in hooking up, etc - once I get everything set up correctly if she even thinks about doing something like that again - we are done... I spent time and traveled far to look for a pony with the temperment she showed. I do not have time to train, tune-up, etc - if I had time to do that without my daughter I would just ride my gelding!

My daughter is always with me when I am not at work and childcare isn't an option unfortunately more then what I work. UGH - just exhausted with this all.. originally so many people around here offered to help, but now - can't seem to get anyone to show up... a very nice lady from here is close offered to come by so tlaking with her to schedule a time

Again - thank you all so much for feedback - I appreciate it.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

PaintMe Fancy, your clarification does change things some. I'm glad you weren't offended, it is very hard to know from words on the screen what the level of the horse/handler is. I do hope you manage to figure out what the issue is and have many miles of pleasurable driving with your daughter and mini.

 

[PaintMeFancy]

Oh takes quite a bit to offend me - was just trying to figure out how to clarify without being too defending and not offend anyone else!

I am confident driving now - just not hooking up - taking lessons when I can - but they are an hour away and not cheap. The one didn't go well - ever think the universe was telling you NOT to do something? My lesson pony had a seizure in cart and had to be put down 2 days later.. it hasn't been an easy road for me - things keep happening (most to no fault of anyones like this) --

It seems while similar the harnesses are just enough different to make overgirth and breeching complicated for me - the lesson horses everything is fitted to them so no "lesson" in adjusting really -

 

[maggiemae]

Don't know exactly how big your mini, how flat the terrain, how long the drive, or how fit she is, but two adults and a very small child might have been too much weight - could she have been objecting from being overly tired or too much weight?

 

[PaintMeFancy]

To answer the questions

40" and about 350lbs

Very flat (no hills, inclines, ditches, etc) only the occassional bump in the road

She was pulling about her body weight in human weight, she is in decent/good shape

I have seen her pull more if that matters

We were out for 30-40 minutes she hadn't even broke a sweat

 

[Minimor]

When you go for your next lesson perhaps mention that you would like some help with fitting and adjusting the harness properly--I can't see why your instructor wouldn't demonstrate that for you.

Certainly if something was pinching that would account for your mare's behavior--while sheikhs have been fine with the weight and the length of the workout, if things started pinching that could be enough to set her off.

When I was a small kid my mom and I would go out driving with the pony and cart. I was about 3, maybe close to 4, so I was old enough to sit alone and hang on. I would hang onto the arm rest on one side abd my mom's leg on the other! I wouldn't take a child out our in the cart on my own unless the child was able to sit alone and hang on--and to get out on her own when told to. It is too risky even with a quiet horse to try to drive and hang into a small child. If the child is sitting alone and cannot hang on it is too easy for him to fall out of the cart even if the horse isn't misbehaving.

 

[PaintMeFancy]

She holds on fine... she sits there with her hand on the bar to her one side and the other to the barn behind her (kind of behind me)... that isn't a problem

I don't know if a horse acted up if she would be too scared to get out on her own (and wont know unfortunately until it happens)... as she gets in and out as told now... for now she is going only if she is on someones lap (unless we are at home)...

She is cute, she wants to drive herself...

Unfortunately my lessons are on hold at the moment for numerous reasons. Including the lesson pony being put down..

I honestly am to the point where I think I want to be done for a bit - ever felt like the universe was saying NO DONT DO IT -- well that is hwere I am at -- the lesson pony had a seizure under cart and had to be put down, the wheel on my cart broke/bent, the pony said no way that one day, not fitting harness, wrong headstall ordered, among a few other things... it is all just not coming together..

I was so excited and had all these plans of driving in the xmas parade, canned food drive, among other things.. and it just isn't happening... I am super bummed but I really think I should back off of this.. hard decisions as I am totally not a quitter especially with horses

 

[PaintMeFancy]

THe only positives that have come from this - is THIS GROUP _ you are all so caring and helpful, I love the conversations- good to feel part of the horse world again.. but the rest is a disaster...

 

[Minimor]

I do know how you feel...I really Sony think your Cary wheel should have buckled that easily--but some wheels are not as sturdy as they should be for use on a cart, and they do fold up under very little stress.

I just got to use my new pony harness yesterday--and discovered that when was sent to me is a large Mini harness with a couple of pony size parts. When I ordered I got measurements on the surcingle and it was big enough. Unfortunately the extra length comes from extra long girth straps...in reality the saddle is Mini sized, meaning the shaft holders are too short to use on a 44" pony. I am very discouraged with this--I had looked at a true pony harness of this brand earlier on and it was exactly what I want/need....and now I have this. It is a harness that I have always like and always recommend to people...I am very disappointed. On top of that I got my knee messed up yesterday by a green pony--and I had plans to do lots of training during my next two weeks of vacation. So I do know how you feel.

Could your instructor come to you once--or you take your horse to her place--and have your lesson with your own horse?

 

[studiowvw]

This is a lifetime dream for me and I'm not giving up now!

I know how you feel too - I've been through several ponies/minis who I didn't feel were suitable for driving or life got in the way, or all I could afford was junk equipment. Then I found the mini I love, Lacey. And coincidentally got a great contract job so I could afford her

I finally bit the bullet and got my mini Lacey trained by Lori Rafter, who did a great job. When I took her home, I got a "quality" new pipe cart that for various reasons wrecked my first couple of months with Lacey (defective tube, missing parts, poor construction, made me sick to look at it). After I got it fixed to the point where it was usable, I sold it. Apparently that kind of quality is acceptable in pipe carts - must be me, haha. I was so mad at the time

But I'm over it now... really

Then I got a nice little roadster type cart for cheap - she liked it and I liked it, but it crippled my back.

Finally I got a nice cart which I like and rides well.

Then my trailer broke - then the truck broke - both fixed now.

Then the harness started causing problems. So I am now waiting for her new Comfy fit harness (which isn't money I wanted to spend, but I realized if I'm doing this, I need to put the right ingredients in. Come on, Universe, I need another good contract job to pay for the harness, haha.)

Then I had to solve her attitude problem caused by the harness and me.

I would say, don't give up yet. Check her harness and see if you can have some lessons with your own horse. With Lacey it was the girth strap and the wrap strap chafing her sides (belly band too short) and probably me sitting too far back in the cart and wrap strap too loose (thanks mini drivers at the Centreville fair!)

If you drove her a few times without your daughter and had a feel for how she is likely to behave, then you will have a better idea of whether to include your daughter at this age.

Good luck and I hope you give it a bit more time.

 

[happy appy]

Any chance that you still have that roadster cart and its for sale studiowvw? I have a roadster horse and I've been looking for one.

 

[paintponylvr]

PaintMeFancy -

Wow, I feel for you... Please don't give up on driving - your mare sounds lovely and in most cases would have been difficult to find. Nothing better than an already trained, seasoned driving pony. Don't let these setbacks get to you - you will figure it all out! As to your daughter - I can't say. Others have stated the possible dangers and you have stated that she's very athletic and able plus wears her helmet. Seems a good workable deal to me... Please mom, enjoy your pony and try again. Did you consider that your cart wheel may have been damaged previous to your mare's "melt down" and you didn't realize it? Maybe investing in heavier duty wheels will do it - they can be ordered!!!

There is something I don't understand - but I don't want to make you feel worse and maybe it isn't pertinent. Maybe it is.

One - when the "mini" was sold to you, if her harness was fitted to her, why weren't you able to purchase it with her? Two - when that didn't happen, was she measured for harness (if she was, I'm sorry, but I missed that)? Three - when your harness arrived and you first tried it on and it didn't appear to fit - could you not send it back (complete) and get the next larger size & just pay the difference in the size? And yes, even Amish style harness usually come with hold back straps. I don't know why yours didn't come with those two straps already attached to the breeching rings. However, that same company - if they don't include the hold back straps in the original purchase of the harness - should have them available at a VERY reasonable charge. THAT SAID - do you still have your original harness? Consider selling it since you have a 2nd one...

My point - I, too, work with an Amish company (and have access to several more - just found the one I chose to work for me). Some of their harness (s) are lower end/cost less - styled just like yours. When I call and give my pony (s) sizes - we find that some fit in their stock small pony harness and some fit in the stock mini harness. And I do do some swapping back and forth (headstalls) as some of my larger ponies actually wear mini sized headstalls & one mini sized mare wears a larger headstall AND bit. There is only a 3 inch difference in my mini size ponies and small pony size ponies - in height. BUT there are other differences in length and girth - all of which affect the fit of each harness.

I wanted work style harness - and that's what I started with when I was ready to move beyond my home made training harness. As I've learned more, I've added to my harness collection - but they didn't seem to have what I wanted... So I asked if we could upgrade and what it would take. They found it interesting that I asked (most don't) and said that yes - they could change out the draft style headstall and make a "proper" style driving bridle with a full caveson adjustable at the proper height & with side checks instead of overcheck for pleasure harness. Then I asked about stiched in buckles rather than conways &/or rivets (though for the most part I've had more buckle breakage than conways come loose) - it just costs more but it's very reasonable overall. My next harness - while a pleasure type - will have a v shaped collar with buckle in traces. While it won't be quite the same quality as the Comfy Fit - for training and what I'm currently doing (not showing) the difference in cost is more than $200 per harness and right now worth it to me. And while training, some of my ponies get into some wild shennanigans - even with all the work I do with them (have had some serious rodeos, LOL). So, spending less on harness that may have to be replaced as it gets a tremendous amount of wear works for me. I still have as a goal either the actual Comfy Fit OR the Carolina Carriages harness - for pairs when I'm ready and at that point. Just so that you know - both are made by american based Amish companies, LOL. I found that quite funny to find out... They were designed with CDE - marathon/dressage in mind.

Again WOW. I can't imagine having a pony "die" in front of me in the shafts (I know that isn't exactly what you stated - but isn't it really about the same??). You are dealing with that too and do not take it lightly - that had to be traumatic! I just had my first Shetland, our stallion, and his "mate", a shetland mare, euthanized. I knew he was "failing" (actally they both were) and we'd all had our chances to say "good bye" - but two months later it's still very emotional, maybe moreso for me because I was "locked up" so tight about it at the beginning. Each of us greives in our own way - allow yourself to - even if he was "only your lesson pony". You still developed and shared a relationship with him.

Let us know how it goes. Don't give up. Sounds like your instructor is probably also dealing with not only grief but if using that pony a lot as a lesson pony than the logistics of whom to use now (i don't know the full situation, tho)...

Hope this isn't too long or offensive...

 

[Sandee]

It seems that we always learn more from mistakes than from doing it the "right way". I know when we got our first mini, he was over weight and the people sold him with a "homemade" cart and a pony harness. Of course I didn't know it was a pony harness. He acted as though he hated being put in the cart and then it was being put in the harness. Finally I got someone who had a lot of experience to tell me that the harness was really a bad fit. The bit was 4" (too big for him) and after we took the extra weight off the harness had to have 6" cut out of the belly strap. When we got everything "fitted" to him the right way he became relaxed and happy and easy to harness.

My next driver was only 3 and green broke and when he "acted up" I thought it was just misbehavior. Untill I discovered that he hated the bit he had and every chance he got would put his tongue over the top which caused it sit on the bars of his mouth (very uncomfortable). Then he would start to act out.

Just hang in there and keep looking for the problem. I tell my grandkids that the horses are like kids that are learning but can't talk so they have to find other ways to "tell" us what's wrong.

Yes, my granddaughter (now age 7) started driving on my lap at 5. She now drives all my horses (well, the ones under 34"). My grandson was older when he started and much better at listening to advice but never got over the "fear" of driving alone. He no longer shows. One thing I did with my granddaughter was to put her in the seat with the reins and attach a longe line to horse so she could only drive in a circle. Me on the end of a longe line would not have been much help and I would not have done it if I actually thought my horse would act out but I know them pretty well by now. It gave her more confidence to think that I could control the horse.

 

[studiowvw]

Hi Happy Appy - no, I sold it, pointing out that it needed springs under the seat. I would have kept it, but not much room for storing carts.

 

[happy appy]

Thanks!