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Geld Or Not To Geld?

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~katie~

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I am wanting to use my 2 y/o stallion in 4-H classes to show and I was planning on having him gelded but now MY PARENTS WANT TO BREED HIM. They want to keep him a stallion and breed to outside mares in my area. They want to charge $200 plus $50 mare care fee. . .but I know (from all of y'alls comments) that you dont think that he makes a great stallion that would improve upon the breed. Yet they say that a gelding for 4-H/showing is a waste while I don't think so. Is there any way at all that I can solve this problem? I don't know how to tell them! The lady that sold us Leo said that he was stallion material but turns out he's not. I was and still am an inexperienced person when it comes to realizing good breeding material. I think that the lady was unfair to me telling me that he would be a great stallion and such when in reality he wasn't. I hate it when people dont tell the WHOLE truth. No offense to anyone. But I posted his pictures so you all can have a reference to him. Thanks to all of you!





They really want a breeding stallion to make a profit off of while I want them for the plain love of horses. What should I do and how can I convince them to buy a TRUE BREEDING MATERIAL STALLION? Thanks so much.

~Katie~
 

rabbitsfizz

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If your parents think for one moment that anyone is going to pay them real money to breed to your colt, well, they need their heads examined!! Also there is NO way you can just stick a mare in a field with a colt and think you can charge $50..00 "mare care" when people pay for mare care, that is what they expect!! And of course the insurance to cover any damage to the mare (and do not think they willnot sue you!!) Plus all the fencing they would have to do in order to make the place safe, and all this for a (I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, I know you love him) second rate colt!!! Well, good luck to them, I've been breeding all my life and have the back injuries, the bite marks and the scars to prove it. There is ALWAYS someone who knows better, though
 

nootka

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You should have them consult w/someone who has nothing to gain by letting them know the "low down" so to speak.

I know there is a lady in California that does this service. She is not affiliated w/any farms, she does not breed, train, or show, and neither is she a judge, but I do think she has enough experience with outstanding quality to help your parents.

In order to make money, you have to invest money, and a flat $50 mare care fee won't cover it, let me tell you.

You need a per day charge, and that had best be for good care and safe care, meaning that the facility had best be up to snuff.

Very few people in the miniature industry breed to outside stallions unless he is a compelling and wonderful animal with a strong show history (usually) and an outstanding production record, as well as being a beautiful individual w/correct conformation and good disposition.

Your black and white is not the type that people are going to see, at least not those that are going to spend anything on mare care, usually. He's pretty, but not "wow" and you'll know what I mean when you see photos of some stallions maybe people will post or you can browse around on some of the big farms such as Little King, Limestone Miniatures, Buck On, El Rancho Loco, Windflight, to name just a few. Those should give you an idea of the type and look that is currently drawing outside breedings.

Anyway, there isn't a huge profit to be made in miniatures, and if someone were to have dollar signs in their eyes, they would be very disappointed indeed, unless they REALLY knew their stuff.

I don't see why showing a gelding in 4-H is "pointless" as I am having more fun w/my own gelding in breed shows than I've ever had w/any stallion. A great gelding can be an awesome farm promotion and can help you to prove what you can do in the show ring. That's important for a breeding program, IMHO. Not everyone shows, but it is a big part of the market today, especially if you are looking to make money.

My suggestion is to find a consultant that can help to plan their strategy if your parents truly want to make money in the business.

If you like, I could email or pm you some names that I think could help you find the right stallion and/or beging planning a program that includes a stud farm.

Liz M.
 

~katie~

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Thank you all for your posts . . . and yes Liz that would be nice! Thanks for your offer! I'd like to have a breeding program but I know how much the annual costs is and the possiblity of losing the foal too and it's a big risk that I'd just rather show with them! As in my other post. . .HORSE SHOW RESULTS! Find out how good Leo did at his local horse show (no biggee just something some ppl threw together but the horses were GORGEOUS and so was my Leo.
 

Lewella

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Does the 4-H program even allow stallions to be shown in 4-H shows? It's been a while since I was in 4-H but I thought they only allowed mares and geldings.


Geldings make the very best show animals! No hormones, no gender related behaviors. Breeding him could make him act studdy sooner than he would have otherwise and create behaviors in the ring that no young person should have to deal with. You want to show and do well, with a gelding your chances are much better because a gelding will focus on you and a stallion, no matter how well trained, is always at risk of losing his focus and causing a disturbance in the ring.

If ever there is the question, even in your mind, of "should I or shouldn't I geld him" - GELD HIM. Your instincts are telling you something and instincts are rarely wrong.


If you need a conformation argument to use on your parents - his neck ties in too low on his chest and his tail set is also too low. His shoulder angle is also too straight up and down. If pointing out his flaws doesn't convince them he's not stallion material I don't know what to tell you to do. He's going to make you one great little show gelding even with those faults but those faults should keep any sensible mare owner from even considering him as a potential mate for their mare.
 

Miniv

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Liz basically took the words out of my mouth. Perhaps you should suggest to your folks that they should do THEIR homework and research what people are wanting as a breeding stud. Liz listed some excellent farms with websites to visit.

And I also disagree with your parents regarding your showing him as a gelding as being worthless. The experience you will get will be priceless! Plus, the more interaction you have with other mini owners showing the more you will learn about the positives and negatives of the miniature horse "business"......

MA
 

Jill

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I would geld him if he were mine... Here are two of my horses who showed and won as stallions, and I decided they were better off as geldings:

Derby:





Lonesome:





AND then here is one I am getting from Erica Killion. He is a multi National Champion and was Natioanl Top 10 as a yearling stallion:



Deciding to geld a horse doesn't make him any less important and as has been said, very few people choose to breed to outside stallions when it comes to minis and there are ones who are double registered and Nationally ranked to choose from...
 

~katie~

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Yes, Lewella 4-H DOES NOT allow stallion that was why I am wanting to geld him! I am only 15 and I can use him for 3 yrs. in 4-H and even more as in WCMHR (he's registered in it) and I have some judges set up for my own mini horse shows that I will host in my area.
 

Jill

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If he is only WCMHR registered and not AMHR and / or AMHA that ALONE is reason to geld, regardless of quality.
 

minimomNC

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I am the gelding queen, yes geld him. He is your horse and you want to show him. Geld him. Breeding is alot more than a stallion and a few mares. Its taking care of those mares, being there when they need you, keeping them safe and healthy and all for hopefully a live foal in about a year. And just in my opinion having testicles doesn't make a stallion a candidate for breeding. I just bought the 2004 Reserve World Champion weanling stallion and he is now a very nice yearling gelding.

As for standing to outside mares, is it worth $200 to keep a stallion year round? Unless you breed at a lot of mares it won't even pay for his upkeep each year. So what happens if you only get a mare or two. There are just to many reasons to not breed. And alot of reasons to geld.
 

midnight star stables

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2 things i have to say...

1 i plane to/will bred for the first 3-4 years of breeding mini.. i have a stud now, & i wouldn't breed him if my life depended on it.. it would make him a different horse.. I'm soon moving & buying a place of my own... i really don't wanna deal w/ a true stud untill i have a stable plane & have specaile feilds & stalls & breeding faclties... & i'm just breeding to local minis w/ a good name in my area

2 my mom & dad also thing show gelding are usless!!
i have a prefet mini but hes a stud & it takes some fun out of showing him.. our gelging is build horribal.. & i can really show him(only obstcal & i don't like that) & we have a filly who we plane to breed... so after 3-4 yrs i can't show her.. i want a show gelding.. but my parents think it a waste..


& i can show my stud.. in all most as many classes as a gelding.. & i'm youth... 15

desiree
 

rabbitsfizz

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Desiree PLEASE read the post!! 4H do NOT allow stallions, Katie wants to show in 4H!!

Also, I am sorry to be so critical but I find it almost impossible to read your posts- do you think you could do spellcheck before you post, please???
 
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minimomNC

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Guess what, AMHA and AMHR pay money to show your gelding, they don't pay money to show your stallion unless you buy a baby that is by a stallion that is futurity nominated. But take your gelding to an area show, they have a gelding class that pays back. Go to R Nationals, there is a $1000 Gelding halter class, so the excuse that it doesn't pay to show a gelding is just that, and excuse. We are showing three geldings right now, if I truly had my way we would only show geldings. This mentality that a miniature horse is useless as a gelding has got to stop. People chose to not have babies, does that make them useless? Some people Can't have babies, does that make them useless? Having the ability to reproduce doesn't make a person or animal worth more or less. I love geldings and I promote geldings.
 

Minimor

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Yea, spell check!!
that would be a good thing!!

Katie, your mom & dad need to realize, you do not make money standing a stallion to outside mares. Even a double registered stallion with a top notch pedigree and a first rate show record isn't going to bring in big numbers of mares. To each his own, but I have to say that for a $200 stud fee and $50 in mare care, it just isn't worth the effort of having a stallion at stud. But, I don't know how you will manage to convince your parents on this one. They are your parents, and they're no doubt thinking that they know best.

It's a shame if they stand firm and you're unable to show him in 4-H for your last 3 years there. It's so unfortunate that there are so many people who think geldings are worthless. Most breeds would be better off if more people had geldings!
 

~katie~

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OK! Thanks for everyone who read and/or replied. Now I have a question - I want to register him AHMR (he is 36 inches). I need to know how to get my membership and his together. I have his pedigree and WCMHR papers in-hand and everything but I have yet to transfer him into my name in WCMHR so I need to get that registry to give me a membership. So can I register him AMHR? I'd really like to show him and since they pay for geldings to show, that'd help me out alot. Thanks.
 

rabbitsfizz

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AMHR is closed- so, unless his parents are ASPC or you register him AMHA (which in your case is out since he's overheight) and then transfer- I'm afraid it's no go
 

lyn_j

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[SIZE=14pt]You can no longer register horses with amhr that are not already reg in AMHA or ASPC. Katie, I know you are young and you love leo and he has definitely come along way but if you were to show him aginst the stallions at the amhr shows....... he cant measure up. Not trying to be mean honey but leo is only pet quality in terms of halter horse potential. He might make a fabulous Showmanship and performance horse but no one with any intent of producing halter quality show horses would breed to him. I know most of you feel that I am too harsh..... these are kids KAtie and Desi ....dont hurt their feelings..... but what does it benifit them if we all tell them their horses are what they arent. They ARE wonderful PETS, they ARE NOT HAlter show horses. Therefore they should not be standing at stud.[/SIZE]

Ok the rest of you can throw stones at me if you want to.

Lyn
 

~katie~

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rabbitsfizz said:
AMHR is closed- so, unless his parents are ASPC or you register him AMHA (which in your case is out since he's overheight) and then transfer- I'm afraid it's no go
426683[/snapback]

Oh shucks! Lol oh well. I'll get HAVE to get me a AMHA gelding now won't I? Hee hee I know what I am going to look for now. . .lol (no kidding).
 

~katie~

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lyn_j said:
[SIZE=14pt]You can no longer register horses with amhr that are not already reg in AMHA or ASPC. Katie, I know you are young and you love leo and he has definitely come along way but if you were to show him aginst the stallions at the amhr shows....... he cant measure up. Not trying to be mean honey but leo is only pet quality in terms of halter horse potential. He might make a fabulous Showmanship and performance horse but no one with any intent of producing halter quality show horses would breed to him. I know most of you feel that I am too harsh..... these are kids KAtie and Desi ....dont hurt their feelings..... but what does it benifit them if we all tell them their horses are what they arent. They ARE wonderful PETS, they ARE NOT HAlter show horses. Therefore they should not be standing at stud.[/SIZE]Ok the rest of you can throw stones at me if you want to.

Lyn

426688[/snapback]

Thank you Lyn for replying I had hoped that you would but IT'S NOT ME THAT WANTS TO BREED LEO - IT'S MY PARENTS. Just saying. Plus if I COULD register him in AMHR then I wouldn't have shown him in halter. Just performance.
 

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