Funny Color Question

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lilhorseladie

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I finally got my permanent AMHR papers for my Stallion and Mare today. They now have colors on them. I know some color is hard to distinguish, but both horses have some paint or pinto background. Could it ever come out in my breeding?

My mare is a sorrel with a plain star. Her father was Sorrel and White, but her grandsire was a sorrel pinto. Her grandmother was a grey dapple pinto.

My stallion is a grey roan. His father was a Black Pinto.

So far, the pair has only thrown grey's with flaxen main and tails. Two of the son's had white chins, and a couple socks. I was just wondering if I could ever "accidently" get a pinto foal?
 

rabbitsfizz

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OK, let's sort your colours out
The mare looks as if she is a Silver Bay- actually she has to be as the stallion is Black base so cannot carry Silver- the mare could "carry" Silver, but she looks to be a Silver Bay- hence your two Silver foals- NOT grey!!! The stallion is either Grey or Roan, the photos are not coming up for me very well so it is difficult to say, I would think Grey. Grey outweighs almost everything so he may have Roan as well, but I do not think so, I think he is a true Grey, just still quite dark. He is also a minimal Pinto- see the white socks?? I cannot see a star on the mares forehead, but take your word it is there, this is usually indicative of minimal Sabino, (which we do not count as a pinto pattern over here) So, to answer your original question, Yes they could throw a "proper" Pinto (Sorrel & White is Sorrel Pinto, by the way) BUT I bred a Black mare to a minimal Pinto, Black stallion last year and this year I got- A Sorrel filly
 

HGFarm

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If you are asking if the pinto pattern itself could crop up, yes it can - that is where the Quarter Horse pinto 'cropouts' come from. You can take several generations of solid colored horses and end up with a pinto (much to the chagrine of many QH breeders in the past!!)

In answer, it may be slim, but as long as the genes are there, YES you can.
 

Dona

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HGFarm said:
If you are asking if the pinto pattern itself could crop up, yes it can - that is where the Quarter Horse pinto 'cropouts' come from.  You can take several generations of solid colored horses and end up with a pinto (much to the chagrine of many QH breeders in the past!!)
In answer, it may be slim, but as long as the genes are there, YES you can.

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I have to disagree. You cannot take several generations of TRUE solid horses & come up with a pinto. You MUST have a pinto parent to produce a pinto...pure & simple. The confusion arises because there are so many horses who APPEAR to be solids, but are actually "minimal pintos".

Quarter Horse pinto "cropouts" came from horses that were registered as "solids" but were actually "minimal pintos". These horses usually had a white sock or two, and maybe a star...but were considered solids to the QH Paint registry. They may not have enough white to be considered "pinto or paint"....but they ARE genetic pintos. Heck...they even registered horses with 4 white stockings & blazed faces as solids....and they are most definitely genetic pintos.


What they failed to recognize is.....any white marking, no matter how small, is indicative of the pinto gene at work, and that horse..even tho it looks solid...is actually a minimal pinto....and can & will produce pinto eventually. The white marking can be as minimal as a tiny white spot on a genital or muzzle or even in the tail where it is virtually impossible to detect.
 

lilhorseladie

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Wow! Thank you for helping me with that question. I am guessing that is why my boys have their white kissy lips...Three of them. Rabbit, this color thing...I have a hard time with the silver bay and the sorrel thing, but I do know my boys have all been silver. The father, was registered as a grey roan, I agree that he is more evenly grayed...with silver hairs ...almost flea bitten look to him. I also notice my foal has silver in his black and red colored mane. Thank you all, has anyone had this happen to them?
 

rabbitsfizz

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Thanks for that Dona, I just could not be bothered to go through the whole rigmarole again- I get SO tired of this "it happens in QH's thing" Can we lay this to rest somehow?? White markings on a solid horse are Pinto!!! So- NO "crop out" not ever, does not happen. Incidentally this was first told to me by an exceptionally wise and very old gentleman, over thirty years ago, and he had known it all his life, so there is NO way this is a new theory!! BUT lilhorse- both your horses are minimally marked Pintos, so in theory you can get a Pinto from them. I am sure now the stallion is Grey. If he were the one carrying Silver he would, IME, have gone almost white by now as that seems to be the affect Silver has when mixed with Grey, so the mare is either carrying Silver (which does not show on Red [DOWN Dona- stay!!
]) or Silver Bay, and I think , in fact I'm pretty sure, she is Silver Bay, in which case I want her please as I do not yet have a Silver Bay!!!
So, your foals are both Silver "Dapple" (Black, may or may not get Dapples
)
 

lilhorseladie

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Well, Rabbit, I think I am catching on... My mare's mother was Palimino... and this is her great grand sire .... so she definately has the silver in her background.

Chocos Little Specks Red Boy



Wasn't he gorgeous!
 

Meavey

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But please also don´t forget that a horse with just white stockings isn´t always a minimal pinto either.

It could be, especially if it´s from pinto background, but it could also be from sabino.

And it´s very rare to get a wild colored horse from just sabino.

If your horse does have the tobiano gene it should trow 50% pinto´s.
 
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HGFarm

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Dona, years ago we knew a vet in Nevada who bred his registered QH mare to a champion QH halter stallion. They got the wildest pinto baby you could ever imagine. They were quite upset and disgusted and were going to GIVE her away, until they realized she could and did, win in the show ring as a registered Paint. Neither sire nor dam had excessive white. ????
 

Becky

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HGFarm, Dona is right! A pinto (by that I mean tobiano, frame, sabino or splashed) can be so minimally marked that most people wouldn't recognize it as such unless they knew the genetic background.

I have here right now a black frame overo colt. His 'only' marking is a blue eye. No body white whatsoever. But he can sire loud frame overos even out of non overo mares if used for breeding. His dam is a very minimal black tobiano mare that only has two small hind socks and a few white hairs in her tail. No body white on her either. But she has produced a tobiano foal by a true solid stallion. Both the colt and his dam have been lab tested.

So there are no 'crop outs'. Those horses deemed that are genetically pinto in some fashion.
 

rabbitsfizz

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That stallion is gorgeous, I always loved him, so full of presence!! Linda, across the pond they count Sabino as a Pinto pattern, in Europe we tend not to, although I have seen some WILD coloured Welsh in my time!! Also of course even what is in the US counted as minimal Sabino, bred to the same, can give maximum. I have had two high white Sabinos produce a filly that would almost have qualified as a Pintaloosa!!! Pinto pattern does not skip generations- I know the QH people think it does but *Gasp* they are wrong!!
 

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