For discussion: AMHR: Ponies being

[Frankie]

I don't think there is any dissagreement, a pony/shetland is different than an actual miniature horse. That being said, why are they being shown in the same classes? It is because classes are according to height, if a taller miniature is at the top of a height class, it will compete against a shetland at the bottom of it's height, as in a smaller size shetland. Just how in the world can a judge be expected to judge a class where there are both miniatures and shetlands?

Why can't they be seperated out????? As I heard many MANY say this weekend, if I wanted a Pony, I'd buy a pony. My choice is to raise miniatures, so why if my choice is to show it has to be done against a Pony.

None of these people have a thing against the ponies, all even made comments on how very beautiful they are, but it is not their choice. Over all, in general, most of the time, a miniature can not beat a pony in a class. They are more refine, they do have more necks and most have much better movement.

I have been to to many AMHR shows in the past 3 years too many to count, but it has been many. 95% of the time, a Pony wins all classes they are entered in. Whether it be halter, performance or driving.

If I want to show a 35" miniature, why do I have to compete with a 38" shetland?

Many Ponies come in and take all the Jr. Grands, and then later out grow the classes, leaving miniatures, very nice miniatures with no Grands until they get into the Sr. Division.

Shetlands, ministures, different horses, how about different classes? Or, lets just take away miniature shows all together and we can all go show with Arabians? To a miniature owner, yip, already feels like we are.

I know time is short for shows, adding more classes takes more time. But will those who only want miniatures continue to pay the money it takes to get to shows if they will only continue to show agains Ponies that they know, a big percentage of the time, they can not and will not beat? Afer listening to many people this weekend, I can tell you the answer to that, is a no. Then we just end up with shetland classes anyway.

This is not about one show, it is happenining at all shows. AMHR

Do not take offense, this has nothing to do with Shetlands and/or those who chose to breed and show them. Personally, they are gorsous animals. But my choise is to show miniatures, and against other miniatures would be nice.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I don't think there is any disagreement, a pony/Shetland is different than an actual miniature horse.

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well here I think you are wrong. There is sure disagreement with me

A pony and a mini are the same thing first off any horse under 14.2 no matter what they breed is a pony

second.. if i took a say purebred poodles and decided they weren't selling well so i would market them under a new name and called them tables...

well it wouldn't matter if those purebred poodles were then bred to smaller poodles and i still called them tables and had 6 generations heck 20 generations of my papers saying they were purebred tables.. while that may be fact it doesn't change the fact that bottom line they are purebred poodles.

Minis or midget ponies which then became miniature horses were a brilliant marketing plan in a pony market that was bombing.

I hear often they are different they were started with minis but somehow even though being bred to each other with there pony blood they lost that along the way

OK now that said.. a good horse will win period I think personally not to be harsh but here goes (take the fact i haven't slept into consideration here)

But I have seen some horses without pony papers win and some with pony papers win and in most cases bottom line in that moment when the judge was looking the horse that won was better then the ones that didn't

JMO anyway

and really all I can say is for those who now say they dont want to show against papered ponies.. well all i can say is start a new registry- as there are papered ponies in both AMHA and AMHR and they meet the height requirement of our HEIGHT ONLY breed- and bottom line is if they are in height they will be at our shows period and have every right to be shown there- they will be there they have been there for years as well.

it is one more excuse for people to say they aren't winning and one more place to put the blame

A judge cant see papers as the horse walks into the ring... some may or may not have "pony" papers

A shetland is shown very different at halter then a mini is - and bottom line to me is if your (my) horses are being consistently beat then It is time for me anyway to take a good hard long look at my own breeding program and see what it is lacking

But I have seen some horses without pony papers win and some with pony papers win and in most cases bottom line in that moment when the judge was looking the horse that won was better then the ones that didn't

JMO anyway

 

[CLC Stables]

This can be summed up in one simple term.................... MINIATURES ARE A HEIGHT BREED................it doesn't matter where they come from................this is one discussion, I personally have gotten more and more tired of every single time that it has been started. No offense to you Carolyn, it is just one of those topics that never goes anywhere but a fight. I chose to raise MINIATURE shetlands. So that means they are MINIATURES, and that is what I am going to compete against.

 

[hhpminis]

If I want to show a 35" miniature, why do I have to compete with a 38" shetland?

Many Ponies come in and take all the Jr. Grands, and then later out grow the classes, leaving miniatures, very nice miniatures with no Grands until they get into the Sr. Division.

I do not think this is such a problem anymore since AMHR adopted the height restrictions for the Jr horses. Yes it did used to be frustrating when you would take a 35" yearling in and have to show against a 38" knowing full well this would be the last miniature show that horse would ever qualify for. But I do not see it as such anymore.

 

[js1arab]

This will be an interesting topic to watch. I personally have mixed feelings on this as I can see both good and bad, but hadn't really given it much thought so I think I will wait and see what more educated people have to say. I do think though that maybe it would be nice if they didn't allow cross entering at a show. Just like you can't cross enter a horse in country then park, maybe it should be that you have to declare whether you are showing mini or shetland division at that show and stay in one division for that particular show. Maybe that's already a rule??? That is why I say I'll watch what others say. I think it will still be an issue though for awhile as even if a horse is only registered with the mini division (not double reg.) they could still have close Shetland heritage and may very well look every bit as good as a double registered. Not trying to argue anything here, just rambling about my thoughts. I do agree though that it seems like a lot of the Shetland type are doing the winning, not necassarily double reg. but ones that have a distinct Shetland look to them

LOL, I guess I type (or think) too slowly. By the time I added my reply there were already several there and no one had replied when I started typing

 

[Magic]

I don't think there is any dissagreement, a pony/shetland is different than an actual miniature horse.None of these people have a thing against the ponies, all even made comments on how very beautiful they are, but it is not their choice. Over all, in general, most of the time, a miniature can not beat a pony in a class. They are more refine, they do have more necks and most have much better movement.

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If this is the case, then obviously the miniatures need to be improved, as a breed. Miniatures ARE ponies, they ALL came from pony stock, but apparently too much "downsizing" by breeders made too many lose refinement, length of neck, and movement. So what is so wrong with continuing to breed down more shetlands (which is what minis ARE) to improve the breed? Until the books are closed completely, I personally don't see any problem with breeding for the betterment of the breed.

 

[Magic]

I do think though that maybe it would be nice if they didn't allow cross entering at a show. Just like you can't cross enter a horse in country then park, maybe it should be that you have to declare whether you are showing mini or shetland division at that show and stay in one division for that particular show. Maybe that's already a rule???

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That is already a rule-- a horse (or pony) can show only as a miniature OR a pony at a show, but not both.

 

[shminifancier]

breed down more shetlands (which is what minis ARE) to improve the breed?

But lets do that with the Classic Shetland

and not the Modern shetland

 

[js1arab]

Thanks Magic, I've never shown Shetlands so I don't know much about their rules

That's why I didn't express too much of an opinion on things

 

[Sunny]

Carolyn, I am very much in agreement with your comments and point of view.

When we first got into the minis in 1996, we were told by many people that there was NO pony blood and that minis were "selectively bred" down from horses, etc. We've all heard that story, I'm sure. At the time, we believed every word of it because we were new. Obviously, as time went on, we became more knowledgeable and now know the "truth" behind the miniature "breed".

I'm not exactly sure of the true meaning of the word "breed". If the minis are simply a "HEIGHT BREED", then it seems to me that it really isn't a BREED at all, but simply a REGISTRY for minis/ponies/horses (or whatever you want to call them) in which to be recognized for one particular physical feature (height, obviously), and I'm not referring to any of the actual "registries" (AMHR, ASPC, etc.).

The Shetland Pony is a BREED that has been recognized for many, many years, as have been the Arabian, Thoroughbred, Quarter Horse, etc.

Within the Miniature Horse "breed", there are certain TYPES, such as the Arabian type, the Quarter Horse type, or the draft horse type. I quite agree with Carolyn that if one wants to breed miniature horses, especially of a type such as the quarter horse type, then it doesn't seem right to have to compete against the Shetland Pony breed at a Miniature Horse show. To me, that compares somewhat to showing at an all-breed, open show where the judge must be familiar with the standards of many different breeds in order to pick the best horse.

I think there would be no argument from anyone that the Shetlands of today are incredibly beautiful animals!! In my opinion, though, I think the Shetlands SHOULD be separated out from the minis (in the show ring), as Carolyn suggested or asked in her post. Many shetlands certainly meet the height requirements of the miniature horse but, in my opinion, they are still a separate breed from the minis and should be shown as such. I have often wondered that if the minis and shetlands weren't part of the same umbrella organization, if they would be shown together the way they are now.

I also agree with Carolyn with regards to the young shetlands showing in the mini classes and then outgrowing the height limit, only to be shown as shetlands from there on in. In my opinion, I don't think that's fair to the minis. And I, too, feel the way many people Carolyn has spoken with do. If I wanted a shetland, I'd buy a shetland (which, by the way, I'm currently looking for).

Carolyn, I personally appreciate the fact that you brought this discussion up, but I also think it will be one of those threads where there will be passionate agreement or disagreement, and most people's opinions will remain firmly in place. <sigh>

 

[shminifancier]

really isn't a BREED at all, but simply a REGISTRY for minis/ponies/horses (or whatever you want to call them) in which to be recognized for one particular physical feature (height, obviously),

You hit the nail on the head That is exactly what it is I don't know what the biog hoop la is all about because that is what it is a Height Registry and not a breed at all... I wish it were a breed That would make minis even with other breeds but noooo:new_shocked:

 

[Sunny]

breed down more shetlands (which is what minis ARE) to improve the breed?

But lets do that with the Classic Shetland

and not the Modern shetland

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OMG, now THAT'S a statement I would give a standing ovation for!!!! But my thoughts on the Moderns and all that are waaaaaay to hot and passionate to ever post on here!

 

[Frankie]

In no way do I think this is a fight. I am seriously interested in what others thoughts are.

I have read replys, and agree with a lot that has been said. Disagree with some as well.

But I have seen some horses without pony papers win and some with pony papers win and in most cases bottom line in that moment when the judge was looking the horse that won was better then the ones that didn't

I do not have a ton of experience with miniatures, last 5 years, and if I can look at a horse and I can see the Pony breeding, I am pretty sure a judge knows as well.

it is one more excuse for people to say they aren't winning and one more place to put the blame

This could be true in some cases, but I would like to mention at the last 2 shows I have been at, those who were discussing the Shetlands in the classes, were also those who were winning with miniatures, so above quote would not apply to any of them. It was just being voiced how difficult it is to beat them. But they were beating some of them. I do believe they were speaking for more miniatures owners than themselves.

I agree the breed is changing, and I do understand where the miniature came from.

But, for those who have had miniatures forever and ever, and do not want to make that change with pony breeding, or whatever you want to call it, is it fair that all of those with so many many valuable years of experience, have to either give in, or give up, when it comes to showing?

I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

 

[Magic]

In my opinion, though, I think the Shetlands SHOULD be separated out from the minis (in the show ring), as Carolyn suggested or asked in her post.  Many shetlands certainly meet the height requirements of the miniature horse but, in my opinion, they are still a separate breed from the minis and should be shown as such.  I have often wondered that if the minis and shetlands weren't part of the same umbrella organization, if they would be shown together the way they are now.

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That is just it though-- because miniatures are a HEIGHT breed-- the books are open to ANY animal that meets the height requirements--- then any shetland (or arabian or whatever) that is small enough, IS a miniature. Therefore they have the right, if registered as a miniature, to SHOW as a miniature.

And there are "recent shetlands" that still have their shetland papers that have been bred small enough to registered with AMHA as well, so it isn't just the "same umbrella organization" that has them showing together.

I suggest that, for those of you who really dislike the shetland-papered ponies-who-are-also-miniatures, to tell the registries that you want the books CLOSED.

Closed to all incoming horses and ponies except those that already have miniature papers. That is the only way to stop additional ponies from getting miniature papers.

As for me, I LIKE the infusion of gorgeous ponies into the minis--- if it improves the breed, I'm all for it.

 

[Filipowicz Farm]

Amhr is a height registery. We also breed mini shetlands and have miniatures. Two of our Seth Thomas Shetlands are 34 and under. They are shown against the smaller horses. We raise and breed both because we enjoy them .

 

[CLC Stables]

I want to know HOW you see pony breeding???

I bet many times you would be fooled.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

ok well then not being snide where do you draw the line- anything with gold melody boy or rowdy just to name a couple which everyone agrees were shetlands? does anything with that in there pedigree not be able to show against "minis"

who decides how far back it is? and what is acceptable.

There are plenty of horses with leg and refinment and balance that dont have pony papers but again the bloodlines are there no matter what the papers say so then again who decides what can and can't show

and even if AMHA (which has PAPERED PONIES) closed it still wouldnt change the fact that minis have and will always have pony blood.

 

[susanne]

If this is the case, then obviously the miniatures need to be improved, as a breed. Miniatures ARE ponies, they ALL came from pony stock, but apparently too much "downsizing" by breeders made too many lose refinement, length of neck, and movement. So what is so wrong with continuing to breed down more shetlands (which is what minis ARE) to improve the breed? Until the books are closed completely, I personally don't see any problem with breeding for the betterment of the breed.

I absolutely agree. If the Shetlands are beating minis at their own game, what does this say?

Which brings me back to the thread on where the breed is going...

I foresee that AMHR will become more and more focused on taller B minis with the continued influence of Shetland blood and the popularity of driving. AMHR has wisely secured a unique angle on the miniature horse world with which AMHA cannot compete

AMHA will continue the quest for smaller and smaller. (Of course, some Shetlands will also qualify for AMHA, just not as many) The result will be a greater distinction between the two registries, each with their separate visions of the miniature horse.

Interesting to see where the AMHR A division goes...

 

[user 488]

I don't think there is any dissagreement, a pony/shetland is different than an actual miniature horse. That being said, why are they being shown in the same classes?

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Another one that thinks you are wrong. I am totally unbiased as I do not own either. But minis are a height breed and anything under 14.2 IS A PONY!

What is so hard to understand about that? Didn't we just go thru this whole "discussion"?

All breeds have different "TYPES" of horses and if you are not competing sucessfully it is time to take a long hard look at your program IF YOU WANT TO SHOW. In other words, if you can't take the heat get out of the fire.

The last thing Miniature Horse shows need is another break down in classes.

If this is the case, then obviously the miniatures need to be improved, as a breed. Miniatures ARE ponies, they ALL came from pony stock, but apparently too much "downsizing" by breeders made too many lose refinement, length of neck, and movement. So what is so wrong with continuing to breed down more shetlands (which is what minis ARE) to improve the breed? Until the books are closed completely, I personally don't see any problem with breeding for the betterment of the breed.

To me it seems very simple.........a good horse is a good horse is a good horse and if you are getting your fanny kicked something tells me you need to improve your stock. I mean, where do you think minis came from in the first place?

 

[Erica]

A horse show is simply "may the best horse win" - so no matter if a horse has "pony" papers, "mini" papers, "pinto" papers, "World Class" papers - the horse is ONLY as good as it's flesh lets it be. Papers don't mean anything if the "horse" isn't there. Best conformation, Show attitude, Conditioning, Handling all come into play out in the Ring, papers don't IMO. You get a very few judges that will pick people - but I rarely see judges that will pick a horse just because of bloodlines.

Judges are paid to place what THEY like best.

If I get beat by a good horse nothing is wrong with that, gives you some motivation to breed better ones.

Had to add that I have a Modern shetland mare who is a LOVE, but has "show" in her too. Alert, Fancy, and Full of Energy, but not at all what I call unhandable.