For discussion: AMHR: Ponies being

[FairytailGlennMinis]

Why can't they be seperated out????? As I heard many MANY say this weekend, if I wanted a Pony, I'd buy a pony. My choice is to raise miniatures, so why if my choice is to show it has to be done against a Pony.

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Minis are a HEIGHT breed...heck, I could take an Arab, Clydesdale or Fox Trotter in if they are the right height--because it isn't about where the blood came from. What is winning in the ring now is winning because it is better--plain and simple. I am not sorry to see the beautiful and balanced horses/ponies winning in the ring over the short legged, no necked long bodies minis of the past. Our breeding has become more selective and is getting better for it in my opinion. If people don't want "ponies" then go buy something over 14hh. If so many of our "foundation" bloodlines in minis were really shetlands...then the only difference now is that they are getting better. We are getting longer necks that are built to flex, deeper hips, better shoulders which allow a more fluid stride, shorter backs and more beautiful heads. Where exactly is the problem? The argument about the breeding of shetlands into minis is completely nullified by the fact that ONLY thing different is the quality being produced. Nothing else has changed that I can see. People are breeding better balanced equine that are under 38" tall--and the better ones are going to win.

-Amy

 

[Sunny]

ok well then not being snide where do you draw the line- anything with gold melody boy or rowdy just to name a couple which everyone agrees were shetlands? does anything with that in there pedigree not be able to show against "minis"who decides how far back it is? and what is acceptable.

There are plenty of horses with leg and refinment and balance that dont have pony papers but again the bloodlines are there no matter what the papers say so then again who decides what can and can't show

and even if AMHA (which has PAPERED PONIES) closed it still wouldnt change the fact that minis  have and will always have pony blood.

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Those are very good questions, Lisa, even though I'm of the opinion that minis and shetlands ought not to show against each other. You guys can't see how many times I've started and erased my next statement because it's just not that simple. I guess if it were up to me, I just wouldn't want the papered shetlands to be winning Miniature Horse titles, and I think that harkens back to my early days and the question I heard (or possibly asked) sooo many times, Is it a horse or a pony?. And it kind of irks me that a shetland, which has its own registry and shows and titles, etc., can win in both venues, but a mini can only show as a mini even though it may have tons of shetland blood. (I think I'm offering more rambling thoughts than actual opinions here, too!)

Slightly off topic but on my mind at the moment: I have to go back and find Mary Lou's post from a couple of days ago about a hackney/mini cross foal that she is not allowed to register now because the book is closed. So, is Magic's statement, "the books are open to ANY animal that meets the height requirements", correct?

 

[Erica]

I want to know HOW you see pony breeding???
I bet many times you would be fooled.

Yep Rob, I have a under yearling filly I am showing that both last year as a weanling and this year I have people in the sidelines asking mom if she is a mini/pony............hehe, No pony papers, Buckeroo, Lazy N Redboy, Egyptian King filly..........closest "pony" she has is Rowdy.

And I don't get mad, rather take it as a compliment, though the people asking at that time were mad as they had "little" horses that didn't stand out as much as others in the ring.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

AMHR books are closed other then to AMHA horses or ASPC horses that MEET THE HEIGHT REQUIREMENT

AMHA books are open to ANY BREED meeting the height requirment

 

[shminifancier]

AMHA books are open to ANY BREED meeting the height requirement

So you reg. them with AMHA OK Then go over and Reg. with AMHR what then is the difference as long as AMHR is going to take AMHA horses then No Registry is REALLY closed Then Correct?

 

[Magic]

AMHR books are closed other then to AMHA horses or ASPC  horses that MEET THE HEIGHT REQUIREMENTAMHA books are open to ANY BREED meeting the height requirment

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Yep, so if a pony or horse is hardshipped into AMHA, then it can be registered in AMHR as well.

 

[Frankie]

And it kind of irks me that a shetland, which has its own registry and shows and titles, etc., can win in both venues, but a mini can only show as a mini even though it may have tons of shetland blood.

That is kind of my thought. Kind of reminds me of the Music Awards. Any one can WIN the Mucic Awards, but to Win the Latin Music Awards, you have to be Latin. This is just an example, not against a person. If you have a registry, why show in both? Where a miniature has no choice? Then is up against those who have a choice. Just a thought.

And I don't get mad, rather take it as a compliment,

I am glad Erica put that, now I admit I do not know what Erica was thinking when she said this, BUT as a reader of that post, if she considers it a compliment to be compared to a Pony, as a reader, I would consider, to compare a horse, then what you are comparing that horse to, has to be different. As in different type horse.

Hope that makes sense.

This was just a topic for discussion, wanted thoughts and ideas, your thoughts, wasn't and haven't said it SHOULD be a certain way.

When you do get to nationals, there is more of a break down.

I do understand where the miniature came from.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

AMHA books are open to ANY BREED meeting the height requirement

So you reg. them with AMHA OK Then go over and Reg. with AMHR what then is the difference as long as AMHR is going to take AMHA horses then No Registry is REALLY closed Then Correct?

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nope they cant be reg into AMHA unless there parents are already and cnat be hardshipped unless they make height requirements

cant be hardshipped into R unless they make age/height requirments either

 

[minimomNC]

You can hardship a horse into AMHA if it fits the height requirments and is five years old or older. Pay the price, have the horse inspected and then you have an AMHA registered horse which you can then registered into AMHR. But there is no pedigree on a hardshipped horse no matter where it came from.

 

[shminifancier]

You can hardship a horse into AMHA if it fits the height requirements and is five years old or older.  Pay the price, have the horse inspected and then you have an AMHA registered horse which you can then registered into AMHR.  But there is no pedigree on a hardshipped horse no matter where it came from.

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That is what I was saying so REALLY no Registry is truly closed as long as the hardshipping is allowed into the AMHA then go over to AMHR that makes that really not closed as long as the rules and such were adhered to into the AMHA.

 

[bevann]

Interesting topic.I had a Mini mare who went to 40".I can't show her as a Shetland because they don't hardship.so now she is a grade pony.If you look at photos of Shetlands from 70 or more years ago they looked much like our Minis and were shorter than present Shetlands.they weren't real marketable since the kids outgrew them for riding quickly.Smart breeders used Hackney, Welsh, small Arabs and anything else to get a larger more saleable pony. Quick fix to a problem.Sales got better-ponies looked pretty.Look at some of the old original Shetlands from the British Isles.They didn't look like the modern beautiful Shetlands. I love the Shetland ponies-I just don't think it is fair to have to show 2 different breeds against each other.I have heard breeders say that they will show the animal this year to get Hall of Fame as a Mini and next year show Shetland to get Hall of Fame as a Shetland.I think we should call them SHEMINIS. Start a new class. I have had Minis since late 1980s and have seen lots of improvement in the breed, but I still feel that Minis are treated like second class citizens with the ASPC/AMHR Registry. If you go to convention and see the financial statements the money income is 10 to 1 from the Minis.Give us a break and call a spade a spade. I have a real problem with a parent organization that can't give money to our youth to be Ambassador Queen, etc but can give $10000 to a Shetland Pony who might win some big national jumping title.Where are the priorities?

 

[bevann]

Sorry I did a double post I'm sure my post will cause some comments. I don't think this issue will be resolved any time soon.Most people are die hards one way or another(like me)

 

[Farmhand]

A horse show is simply "may the best horse win" - so no matter if a horse has "pony" papers, "mini" papers, "pinto" papers, "World Class" papers - the horse is ONLY as good as it's flesh lets it be.  Papers don't mean anything if the "horse" isn't there.  Best conformation, Show attitude, Conditioning, Handling  all come into play out in the Ring, papers don't IMO.  You get a very few judges that will pick people - but I rarely see judges that will pick a horse just because of bloodlines.
Judges are paid to place what THEY like best. 

If I get beat by a good horse nothing is wrong with that, gives you some motivation to breed better ones.

Had to add that I have a Modern shetland mare who is a LOVE, but has "show" in her too.  Alert, Fancy, and Full of Energy, but not at all what I call unhandable.

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[Magic]

That is what I was saying so REALLY no Registry is truly closed as long as the hardshipping is allowed into the AMHA  then go over to AMHR  that makes that really not closed as long as the rules and such were adhered to into the AMHA.

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I don't remember anyone saying that the registries were closed. I did say that if one doesn't like the shetland-papered horses getting mini papers too, one could lobby for the complete closing of the registries. *shrug*

 

[Frankie]

If it is indeed a rule that a Shetland Bred Miniature, with that type breeding, can not show as a Shetland, why? I do not know of their rules and am just curious. Not trying to go a different direction here.

 

[Sue_C.]

The Shetland Pony is a BREED that has been recognized for many, many years, as have been the Arabian, Thoroughbred, Quarter Horse, etc.

Right...then how in heck did the infusion of hackney blood get there then, if they truely are pure-blooded animals? This has always confused me. Is is the Moderns isn't it...that look like little hackneys? That is NOT what I want my miniatures to look OR move like.

We here show our minis in many open competitions, and shown with, and beaten both larger ponies and full-sized horses; when mini classes aren't offered to us.

That is only when the minis must compete in non-mini classes. If mini classes are offered, we do not "cross-enter", as that is NOT FAIR to the others who are not allowed to show in OUR classes.

In my oplinion, if I CHOSE to spend the $$, and haul to, and show in a MINIATURE HORSE show...that is what I EXPECT TO DO... Show my CHOSEN breed in it's OWN class in it's OWN show.

And it kind of irks me that a shetland, which has its own registry and shows and titles, etc., can win in both venues, but a mini can only show as a mini

Sounds to me like some want to have the best of both Worlds...and is that fair?? Nope...

 

[Sue_C.]

Oh yes, just a thought to consider, for those that say that Shetlands and Minis are no different because there is Shetland blood in Miniatures.

There is a lot of Arabian influence in many breeds, but you don't see any of them showing as registered Arabians. There is also much Thoroughbred in other breeds as well, but they aren't Thoroughbreds. Many breeds have "given" themselves to others to help improve them, but they "let go", and do not try to say they are still the same animal, generations later.

Perhaps we need a "Part-bred" registry.

So, if my registered MINIATURE HORSES go oversized...they can be registered as Shetland ponys??

 

[disneyhorse]

I think it's a GREAT thing... since most ALL minis are bred from Shetlands somewhere long ago... it's nice to see that people are trying hard to re-introduce some shetland breeding into minis... may help reduce dwarfism and stuff too?? I don't know???

The nice thing too is that it will help breed in NATURAL movement... I'm not saying that miniature horse people need to fear that we will start putting chains and pads and shoes and weights on our minis... but that is done to ENHANCE the natural action of the shetland, not CREATE movement of the shetland... so hopefully we can BREED IN that movement to our minis!!!

Not all shetland/minis are amazing, I have been shopping around for one because I want to buy one in the next year or so... the truly nice ones are difficult to come by so far, but it's nice to see that the owners of such horses are proud of them and promoting them!

Andrea

 

[Magic]

There is a lot of Arabian influence in many breeds, but you don't see any of them showing as registered Arabians. There is also much Thoroughbred in other breeds as well, but they aren't Thoroughbreds. Many breeds have "given" themselves to others to help improve them, but they "let go", and do not try to say they are still the same animal, generations later.

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But that is because the books were closed. For example, not all that long ago, I had a pinto mare born, out of a solid, unregistered mare, and a registered Paint sire. The Paint registry's books were still open, and I could have hardshipped my filly in, but I didn't. Just a couple of years later, their books closed, and the chance was gone, and my filly was an unregistered horse. But she COULD have been registered, she met the requirements.

That is how the miniature registries are right now too. Any horse (or pony) that meets the requirements, can be registered as a miniature. Until the books are closed, that is not going to change, and so those shetlands and whatever is small enough, will BECOME registered miniatures. So why can they not show as such?

 

[runamuk]

The first thing I keep seeing is the term shetland......there are two distinct breeds with this name

American Shetland ...the one we are referring to here is a breed that was based on the Shelands from the shetland isles then "improved" with the infusion of some other blood to get that more refined showy look we see today........

as for modern vs classic leave that to the aspc breeders

to argue........I recently saw a very "modern" looking shetland on a classic breeders site and I believe this same "modern" looking pony qualifies for foundation seal papers.......American shetlands are a blood breed with a closed registry......

Miniatures still allow hardshipping so if you have a horse/pony/ that meets the age size requirements and you have the money to pay the fee's you can still register with AMHA.......I think AMHR is a step closer to closing the registry and making theirs a breed by only allowing registered stock to be brought in .......but it wasn't done with alot of thought to the breeders who were in process of still improving their own herds based on the previous requirements.......

I actually don't see the problem if it has the papers it can show...... again if the hardship rules bother you that much then lobby for them to be closed......or show AMHA where they have tighter height restrictions...so it is harder for those shetland papered horses to get in.......

Also there are a number of miniatures who are kicking some hiney at the pinto shows so there is another avenue of course you still risk showing against ponies there too as they divide their classes by height and I believe type....stock type, saddle type...etc......