Examples of "Good Shoulders" On A Mini

[Dontworrybeappy]

[SIZE=14pt]Well, not a mini, but here's a page I did on conformation with our Khemosabi son Khornerstone KpM...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Conformation Page[/SIZE]

 

[nootka]

Hi, all,

I am glad to see this thread, too, as an offshoot of Tia's conformation thread. I used my MSPaint program to draw the lines on the photos to help illustrate what I was looking at/asking about, because, as we know, a lot of people will see things differently, or aren't quite seeing what is being discussed simply because of confusion.

What I try to do is to imagine this line from the point of the shoulder to the highest point of the withers. Whether this is wrong or right, I don't know.

Here is my version of the "line" I see when looking at a horse, and I've drawn the angle in red and compare it to the "plumb" or straight line that I also added.

I would say his shoulder is "good" but not ideal, though it is not overly steep, either.

Consequently, his extension is what I would label as "good" but not really out there.

I hope that what I am posting is what is meant by angle of shoulder, and also helps others see what they should look for when evaluating this point of conformation.

Liz M.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

LeLe and Taker both have lovely shoulders!

Karen, that's a great page you made and it goes without saying that Khornerstone is a lovely hunk of horse. I'd take him home anyday! I knew that the first time I saw an ad for him in Arab Horse World long before I got into minis (you know, the one showing him sticking his head into the office and watching TV with you guys?)

What I try to do is to imagine this line from the point of the shoulder to the highest point of the withers. Whether this is wrong or right, I don't know.

Liz, I think you're doing your horse a disservice drawing the line where you have. The conformation books I have say to draw it from "the point of the withers," which when looking at their example pictures appears to be not the tallest point but literally the place where the wither starts sloping downward instead of up. I'm not sure how accurate that is though as I drew that line on pictures of all three of my horses and got much straighter angles than the visible ridge of their scapulas would indicate on the two with good shoulders, and a much more sloped line on the one with straight shoulders!

In either case, Mouse's line should be both higher at the bottom to match the true point of his shoulder and further back/lower at the top. You can see by the shadow line on his neck that his angle is more laid-back then you drew.

Okay, here are mine. First is Kody, my five year old miniature gelding. The blue dots indicate the points the book told me to mark, the yellow indicates where I would have put the top of the shoulder. Note how the blue line of shoulder and pastern match on each horse.

This is an unmarked photo that clearly shows Kody's shoulder angles and where the points lie. This horse gives the impression of moving primarily like a hunter, long and low, but photos prove he actually lifts his knees nicely as well and he tucks up extremely strongly when jumping.

This is my Arab Spyderman at 25 years old. Unfortunately in this picture he has toed into the sand (sort of cupping out a divot under his feet) so the angles are not correct on his pasterns. I tried to draw the line to match where he really stands. This horse is a beautiful mover, capable of moving either "up" when asked to or very long lovely round strides as a hunter horse. He has lots of power from the rear with his hocks moving well up under him and as strongly as the forehand, and the shallow curve of the vertebrae in his lower neck and nice tie-in on top combined with a long and curvy poll area means he can use his neck beautifully to balance himself in collection. This is a horse who is smooth and safe to ride, with a very cushiony gait that is pleasant for the rider. You also have to really watch your reins with him. When collected, he uses literally half the rein length he needs when standing or doing a free walk. That's because he coils, coils, coils.

And here is one of my mother's Arab Bo pictured at 27 years old. Sorry about the saddlepad, again, the only picture I could find. Bo has the most gorgeous chest of of any of our horses but in real life his shoulders are very obviously straight and he is a real daisy-cutter. He has the most gorgeous suspended trot we call "Fairy-footing" but he has always tripped a lot and is very jarring to ride. He also jumps huge because he doesn't bend his forelegs much and he travels very much on his forehand despite careful training. He was a champion trail horse in his day, very light on the bit and responsive to leg, but he's just not built to lighten that forehand and carry himself correctly. Luckily for him he has a heart a mile wide, loves everybody, and his tendons are so tight and hard that he has withstood the constant pounding his shoulder and pastern angles have caused him. Bo is the type of horse who would have set world endurance records despite his conformation if my mother had cared to set him at that.

It's funny- Spyder is the one with the narrow chest and less type, but he has a far better shoulder than the horse who looks built like a powerhouse. Kody is another that is not that typy, but while not ideal his neck has a long curve-span on the top, clean throatlatch (that's not the best picture to show it) and is set high on his chest so he has a very easy time rounding at the poll and using his topline. His weak points lie mostly in his hind end and that is another thread! LOL.

So be aware of skeletal structure. Bo looks like the best put-together horse in our pasture because he is smooth and typy, but he's not. Spyder wins in that department with a better neck and shoulder than Bo and a better hind end than Kody. All three of them are something to see when they brace those front ends and stretch their necks though!

Leia

P.S.- Just a head's up, I'm planning a thread about ewe necks (what they REALLY are) soon. Then on to the hindquarters!

 

[Jill]

Thanks everyone. I think I am getting it sloooooowly! This issue to me is a lot harder to evaulate than many other parts of conformation.

 

[nootka]

Thank you, Leia!

I, too, am gaining a new understanding of this point and evaluation!

Liz M.

 

[susanne]

Oooohhh...Spring Thunder is my kind of horse! Exquisite -- and all this as a yearling! I can only imagine how she'll develop over the next couple of years...

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

Karen, that's a great page you made and it goes without saying that Khornerstone is a lovely hunk of horse. I'd take him home anyday! I knew that the first time I saw an ad for him in Arab Horse World long before I got into minis (you know, the one showing him sticking his head into the office and watching TV with you guys?)

Actually, he was IN our living room at the time, and watching "the Black Stallion" with me!

it's in his DVD now, too!

thanks for pointing out that the shoulder angles usually match the pastern angles - I'd been wanting to say that but hadn't gotten around to it yet!

 

[small herd]

GOOD TOPIC. I would like to see more like this, educational as opposed to critiquing.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Can I admit something guys? There's quite a bit of this stuff I don't get yet either! Like I look at Bo's little dots and lines and go geez, it looks like he's got a wide angle, an upright, long humerus, all sorts of stuff that should be good. But it's the opposite! I can identify the points, I can look at a shoulder and say "I like it" or "I don't," "It's straight" or "it's laidback" and usually be right but I don't really know why!

Does that make me a bad person?

Some stuff I'm clearer on than others. I think I get necks, I really do. I KNOW I understand the hows and whys of a good tie-in, top or bottom. I understand loins and why a good coupling there is important. I understand how a front or hind limb moves, and how a horse carries weight or collects themselves. But I need to learn some of this stuff better myself. I was hoping Nila (Sunquest) would come chip in on my pictures and see if I got it right! LOL.

This is why I am not a judge and never did well on written reasons in 4-H. I do too much of what I do by intrinsic feel and not enough by really understanding conformation. So these threads are for all of us. Thanks for helping me learn too!

Leia

 

[SunQuest]

Leia,

I just saw this as I am just checking in really quick. I won't be online the rest of the weekend most likely.

Anyway, You have a good grasp of things. I would guess just from looking at the pictures that you have the lines correct that you had drawn in blue. Again, it is easier to see in real life than in any photo.

And the others like Carol who have posted really know there stuff on this as well. I couldn't explain it any differently that you have by getting it right out of Dr. Deb's books. ANd Carol's post describes it perfectly well also.

But great post and I have learned some more as well!