Dun Gene Question

[Joanne]

I have had several miniatures over the years that are born with a obvious dorsal stripe, shoulder and neck barring, and even some with stripes on the legs. We have just had two colts born this month that show these markings.

This is the first one born. The black hair of the dorsal stripe is actually is coarser and stands up compared to the rest of the body hair. He is a dark bay. His sire is a bay frame sabino pinto, homozygous for black. His dam is a bay.

This second horse is more of what I have seen in photos as a yellow dun. It is a bay, but closer to buckskin than classic bay. More of a yellow tinge than red of a typical bay. I bought the mare bred and she is a bay splashed white tobiano. The sire is a solid chestnut. The breeder told me that the chestnut sire has a dark red dorsal stripe and has thrown this dorsal stripe to his foals. His stripe is narrow compared to the first foal, but is jet black. You can see the neck barring and shoulder triangular patch in this photo. He also had head cobwebbing.

Sometimes when I clip the foals these stripes disappear.

My question (you were wondering if I would ever get to it by now, weren't you ??) is,

are these true duns or what is going on here ??

 

[Mona]

In both cases, I would say no, your foals do not appear to be dun. They (in my opinion) are both bays...different shades, but both bay. A dun MUST have a dun parent, and none of the parents you listed are dun either. The stripes you see are countershading. The true dun markings cannot be shaved off.

 

[Jill]

From the pictures, I really would just be guessing as to if they are dun factored or not... However, Mona is correct, and a true dorsal stripe will not clip off...

Dun is one of my favorite (to look at) color genetic situations and I've got some dun mares and a grey-grullo stallion. I say that I love any horse just a little bit more with dun factor :bgrin My grey-grullo stallion is out of two dun factored parents, and I hope he is actually homozygous for it. First foals are expected next year, and may get some insight into all that he may have going on (grey, cream, dun, appy... boggles my mind).

Anyway, regardless of if they are dun or not, those are some very nice looking babies you've got there

PS my stallion as a foal with extreme dorsal...

Erica's Gone and DunIT

 

[miniwhinny]

If you visit Jill's website she has some lovely duns (oh..if there are pics of them there *grin*) You must have a dun to make a dun. It doesn't skip a generation. But non duns can have markings that look like duns. Jill's duns are true duns :bgrin

This is my boy Ozymandias. He's not a dun, neither parent was a dun but he has a dorsal, shoulder stripes, dorsal stripes, neck barring and more.

 

[Sue_C.]

This is my boy Ozymandias. He's not a dun, neither parent was a dun but he has a dorsal, shoulder stripes, dorsal stripes, neck barring and more.

I think that if this horse posted has all these markings...it IS a bay dun. Just because the PAPERS don't claim the parents to be dun...that they aren't. I have a bay dun mare, registered as a bay by her breeders, who is definately dun, and has had dun foals by my very bay stallion; including a beautiful grulla filly.

If you think the colours on your horse's papers are infallable...read the post about what AMHA is doing with silver bays now...sigh...

:

 

[Joanne]

Thanks for all your help. A couple more questions and thoughts.

Ozymandias is incredible. I do not know what is causing all those stripes, but WOW!!

Can black hide the dun markings ?? Pass them on but not show them themselves ??

Also, as I mentioned, I do not own one of the stallion and the owner says that the sire has a dorsal stripe. I have not clipped these yet as they are just 2- 4 weeks old now.

The sire of the first bay foal is a bay frame sabino. He does have a darker midline stripe. He is an extensive white and with the roaning of the sabino gene nearly whites out most of the year except for the dorsal stripe.

I personally play it safe and have not called these horses duns, as I have had several sent to me listed as duns that, though are darker along the spine, are not what I consider true dun. These latest two have me stumped because of the difference of the hair texture in those areas.

I do agree with you about the registration papers and pedigrees. AMHA/R are height breeds. You could be a green or blue horse and still be registered as long as you met the height requirements. They are not a color / pattern breed.

As new color / pattern dna tests are added, I hope that the registries incorporate the new knowledge. We can not only hope, but actively petition for their inclusion to make the pedigrees more acurate.

I know I am still in a tailspin after dna testing for the silver gene. Much of what I was taught had to be rethought.

 

[miniwhinny]

Black cannot hide dun, black with dun is grullo, shades varying from lobo to silver, and the dun dilution will show up as a shade lighter than black with the dun factor markings being black.

In Ozy's case there are no duns in any generation on either side. One of the brindle registries thinks he's a type of brindle. Dr. Phil Sponenberg (author of "Horse Color Genetics" and other horse color books) says he looks like a very wildly marked dun but is not a dun (he's studied his pedigree and seen pics of all closely related horses).

Like folks said...you cannont remove dun markings by clipping as it's body color (like you can't shave off a pinto's markings)

 

[Sue_C.]

Can black hide the dun markings ?? Pass them on but not show them themselves ??

No it cannot. A black dun is generally referred to as grulla or grullo. The dun gene generally "modifies" the black to a smokey/mousey grey with darker points and barrings.

A dun horse needs more than the dorsal, it must have the shoulder and leg barring as well.

As new color / pattern dna tests are added, I hope that the registries incorporate the new knowledge. We can not only hope, but actively petition for their inclusion to make the pedigrees more acurate.

Wouldn't you THINK??? But NOoooOOOooooOOOoooo...according to the recent post on the AMHA not accepting silver bay as a colour...and allowing chestnut or regular bay intead. talk about going BACKWARDS.

I know I am still in a tailspin after dna testing for the silver gene. Much of what I was taught had to be rethought.

Hopefully the "colour gurus" at the registry will get with the program as well. Hasn't happened yet, and the blame is on this new-n-improved computer software that was supposed to be FIXING these problems.

: Sorry, but I am just shaking my head about this, and I think it's making me dizzy. :bgrin :bgrin

 

[Mona]

Joanne, I know what you mean about the ones that have the hair on the spine growing funny. I experienced this for myself for the first time this year. My little black homozygous pinto colt, out of a homozygous black pinto(homozygous for both black and tobiano) mare and sired by a bay minimally marked pinto stallion. This colt is what I referred to as my little hyena! The hair stood straight up along the spine! Here are a few pics. I know they are large, but I left them this way to better show the way the hair grew!

 

[Joanne]

Ohhh my! Have you clipped this foal out ???

Did he retain the long hair?

Is it a coarse hair ?

 

[Sue_C.]

In Ozy's case there are no duns in any generation on either side. One of the brindle registries thinks he's a type of brindle. Dr. Phil Sponenberg (author of "Horse Color Genetics" and other horse color books) says he looks like a very wildly marked dun but is not a dun (he's studied his pedigree and seen pics of all closely related horses).

How cool is that!! So, as brindle is a rather "rogue" colour...does it breed true, I wonder. I know there are brindle stallions out there...but haven't read anything on their prepotency in the colour reproduction department. As it is still a rather "rare" colour...I have always assumed not.

 

[miniwhinny]

Oh Mona...he's ADORABLE !!!!! He's got a little Mohawk going on there LOL :aktion033:

Sue C. If you do a search here on the forum there are a couple of posts that should come up under "brindle". From what I understand a horse can become brindle either by inheriting the gene (parent is a brindle) or by being a chimera which is where two zygotes fused to make one and you get one animal with two different DNA patterns. The brindle folks also feel it has something to do with the smutty gene and I know Ozy has the smutty gene. I personally don't think he's a true brindle...but he's got something wierd going on. Perhaps some other manifestation of smutty similar to, but not, brindle.

 

[Mona]

Ohhh my! Have you clipped this foal out ???

Did he retain the long hair?

Is it a coarse hair ?

:bgrin Yes, I clipped him out, but he is just this year's foal, so I don't know if it will grow back like that, but I am thinking it will, since it seemed to grow like a "cowlick" in that direction, but right down the entire length of his back! WIERDEST thing I ever saw!

:

 

[disneyhorse]

He sounds like a Rhodesian Ridgeback!!! Or a Razorback! Do you have a registered name for him yet?

:

Andrea

 

[wiccanz]

Mona

Just out of curiosity - what was your baby's gestation length? Don't know if it has anything to do with it, but I have a weanling who went 369 days, and he had a strange strip of very long hair over his hindquarters only. Looked like some sort of mane at the wrong end of the horse!! :bgrin

 

[Mona]

Brigid, my colt's due date(I calculate the full 340 days for my mares, not 330 like most here do) was April 3-8, and he was born April 12, so no, he was not what I would consider to be overdue.

Yes Andrea, he is already reg'd! LOL! You said he "sounds like"...were you not able to see the pics? I posted some in this thread of him that show his hair.

 

[SilverDollar]

A dun horse needs more than the dorsal, it must have the shoulder and leg barring as well.

Is this true? If they have all the other markings--dorsal stripe, leg barring--but not the shoulder bars, what are they?

Boy, this color thing sure is complicated!

:

 

[miniwhinny]

A dun horse needs more than the dorsal, it must have the shoulder and leg barring as well.

Is this true? If they have all the other markings--dorsal stripe, leg barring--but not the shoulder bars, what are they?

Boy, this color thing sure is complicated!

:

I always thought that technically they only have to have a dorsal visually (and the dun gene). Some also have leg stripes, shoulder bars, cobwebs etc. I had a Sorraia/Sulphur cross who's momma had three dorsal stripes, cobwebs, leg stripes and neck patches. Her full sister only got the dorsal and nothing else showed up. Both were duns. The registries where my horses were registered graded on dun factor as part of their requirements. Obviously one mare scored high and one only just made the requirements.

 

[Jill]

For whatever it may be worth, this is my "most dun" horse, though he is not a mini. He's a small pony. I bought him at the same time I bought my first mini (both as foals) so that my mini would have company... little did I know, we'd be buying plenty of company in the years to come.

You can see his dorsal, and his leg bars. His name is Double A Ranch's Cinco-Sundance, a/k/a "Sundance". He's soooo sooooooooooooooooo stubborn but he is one of H's favorites. He's about 42" -- an "over achiever" miniature horse :bgrin

 

[minih]

I am not sure about your little ones, but I do know you have to have a dun parent to get dun. And if you can shave it off, it is not a true dun. Here are some pics of our little red dun guy "Wildman", he is out of our stallion we co-own with Erica, "Ringo". I will include a picture of him below Manny.

here is Dad,