Cryptorchid

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pepperhill

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I have been noticing more and more in my area that cryptorchid stallions are on the increase. I know of 8-10 just off the top of my head. In fact, there are some people that feel that it is a very common problem in miniatures. "That's just the way they are." I will hear. Is this true? I know several cryptorchids came out of normal stallions, but I guess I don't know about grandsires. Now that they seem to be everywhere, what are these people going to do about gelding them. I was told it couldn't be done with one retained without it being a major surgery for major $$$. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Surely these people aren't doomed to being unable to geld, are they?!? Thanks, Linda
 

justaboutgeese

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They can geld but its a more complicated procedure. There is another thread regarding horses slow to let down. IMO these are bloodlines to stay away from. (here goes that flame retardent suit again)
 

Ashley

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Yes they can geld at a higher expense. I had my gelding done almost 7 years ago now. He had one down not the other............back then it cost $400 cant imagine what it is now.
 

Miniv

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No, it is NOT "just the way they (minis) are".

And yes, they CAN be gelded, however it's more of a surgery and much more expensive.

MA
 

minimule

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I checked into the gelding of one here (NM). The cost was anywhere from $800 to $3000, depending on how in-depth they needed to go. One vet said they could do it with a laporoscomy (non-invasive) but that that wouldn't remove the undescended "jewel".

I had someone send me this once when I questioned Cryptorchid.

http://www.scottcreek.com/crypto.htm
 

rabbitsfizz

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IMO OF COURSE it is hereditary, and these horses should NEVER be bred form. The registries need to go one step further- the requirement for Senior Stallions- a Vet cert of two fully descended, normal testicles- should be the minimum requirement for siring a foal.
 

Kathy2m

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my mini had one retained my vet gave him a shot of HCG (same thing they give humans he told me) gave 2 shots 4 months apart and he dropped. he was a yearling at the time. Hope this helps. Kathy
 

ClickMini

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I have a 2yo with only one down, and I was quoted from $500-1200 to geld, depending on how involved the surgery is. I am going to do it this winter.
 

Minimor

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Around here it's about $80 for a normal gelding procedure--maybe a bit less, maybe a bit more, depending on which vet you get or if you do more than one horse while the vet is at the farm. A friend of mine had a QH operated on to remove 1 retained testicle--the vet did him on the farm, and I believe the bill was about $150. This colt wasn't too difficult to geld--the missing part wasn't too far up in the abdomen. Some are harder to find--have heard of the surgery taking a couple hours at least, and no doubt those surgeries do cost a lot more. Again, the vets in other areas may also charge more.

Also keep in mind that in rare cases the missing testicle simply cannot be found--it can be so far up in the abdomen that the vet just can't locate it. I know of one full size horse that had it lodged up against his spine. The vet found it only after the horse was euthanized (owner didn't want a horse that couldn't be completely gelded)--it would have been impossible to find & remove that one if the horse had been alive.
 

justjinx

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We had a cryptorchid 2 year old gelded this year. the quote by the vet was "in the range of $600-$800 generally (depending on how far the 2nd testicle was into the abdomen)". luckily it only came out to about $500, but there can be quite an expense to these surgeries.

I would NEVER consider breeding a cryptorchid.

jennifer
 

miniwhinny

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My colt MiniV Midnights Last Dance is a yearling and only has one. He's had that one for months now
. He (and his "one-day-to-be-wife) are my first minis so late droppers are new to me but his breeders, who are very experienced, have assured me numerous times that it's nothing to worry about and that he will drop. His half brother just dropped and he's or 6 and all of his relatives have both down (Little King's Midnight Express, Little King's Locomotion, Boone's Little Buckeroo, Komokos Little King Supreme and others) His bloodlines are awesome and he's exceptional. There is no way I'm gelding him
He'll drop one of these days, I'm not worried at all about that. He's going to be my herd sire one day.

I've linked to this before but here is a really good article on the subject.

http://www.scottcreek.com/crypto.htm

I guess if you buy a horse to geld then it's a different matter, you would have to pay more to get him gelded but as a horse meant for breeding...it's just a case of sit and wait.

By the way on the subject, if I was to try to breed him before the other dropped do you think he would be fertile or would I have to wait?
 

rabbitsfizz

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He will be fertile. A Monorchid should NOT be bred! Good Luck- you are perpetuating the problem but hey- he has awesome bloodlines so it must be OK!!
 

miniwhinny

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Rabbitfizz, I don't believe he's a Monorchid. I believe he's just late dropping the other one. Believe me...coming from having big horses before this was very worrying to me at first but I trust his breeders and they have assured me that this is perfectly normal in mini's and not to worry and to be patient.
 

nootka

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I had a beautiful young stallion who only had one, and by age four, he still didn't. He HAD sired three beautiful colts, one of which is my gelding, Mouse, and so I chose to have him gelded. It cost me $140 along w/a week long stay at my vet's clinic, and it took him at least a month to recover as the testicle was very deeply retained and required quite an expedition to find.

NONE of his full brothers, his sire, his half brothers, etc., exhibited this problem, and neither did his sons, who were both descended at birth and gelded normally.

I learned alot during the time I had him and wished for him to descend normally. He NEVER would have done so, after the surgery was done, my vet knew for sure.

I did have one colt here that descended at 19 months. He had none down, though, and first one, then the other came down, within a week of each other. Myself, I have decided not to use anything for breeding (that I know of) that was not descended at least by 2 years. I just don't need to wait around, and figure I will have to trust the owners of stallions that I potentially use, to be honest with me.

I have been honest with anyone who bought with me!

JME

Liz M.
 

miniwhinny

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Read the previous thread "new stallion to be". There are lots of breeders who think it's normal not to drop until after the 3rd or 4th year.
 

nootka

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I'm not going to tell anyone what to do other than to advise that if they ARE going to be using one of these late bloomers or a stallion w/one testicle for breeding, that they disclose this fact honestly to any potential buyers. Even the fillies of that stallion w/one testicle.

Please be honest so that others can make their own determination as to whether they want to use that horse or buy his offspring, etc.

It IS important, and it's only fair. It is similar, to me, to a bad bite. If you were to try and hide the fact that the sire had a bad bite, and people came to buy (I know, I know it happens, but I wish it didn't) a show horse/breeding stock, and ended up w/a horse with a bad bite when they maybe could have made a better choice instead of wasting time, money, and worry over it....it would be a nasty trick.

Liz M.
 

pepperhill

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DannaM, What an excellent article. While it doesn't have all the answers, it certainly validates that there are different viewpoints. I don't know where all the cryptorchid colts are coming from in my area. I do know that they are from lots of different stallions so it would be impossible to point fingers and say "That stallion, right there, shouldn't be used for breeding." Actually, it may be inaccurate to even call them cryptorchids until they are 3 or 4 yrs old. What do you think?

It sounds like a person shouldn't lose hope until their colts are at least 3 and maybe even 4 years old. From the prices everyone quoted, it might be worth it to wait awhile before gelding if the situation allows for it, as there are many hundreds of dollars hanging in the balance. I actually know a person that had the second one descend when the horse was older, but I didn't know it was as common as it apparently is.

I greatly appreciate all the information from all your experiences. Maybe what is happening is all the small acreage owners buying "Yard Pets" are buying little colts because they're cheaper, thus the % of retained testicles is going up accordingly. I live in an area where every acre that isn't nailed down is being turned into an "acreage" and minis are the current favorite pet.

Kathy2m, I am very interested in the HCG injections you talked about. Maybe they help speed along this process. Can you tell me any more? I've never heard of it -- for horses or humans!
 

rabbitsfizz

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It is not "normal" for a colt not to descend until two or three, nor is it desirable, nor would it be tolerated in any other breed- EXCEPT where people think they have something that is too good to geld. Believe me I have been doing this all my life- there is NOTHING that is too good to geld, and an awful lot that are not gelded that should be (whole new thread, I know
) By accepting colts that do not drop until two or three the problem is being perpetrated- the proof is in the fact that, in a breed where you will be told"this is normal" there are loads of colts that do not drop until they are tow or three. In a breed where this would be considered abnormal and the colt gelded, there are not any, or very few. Since I would not use a colt with this problem, I do not have this problem. OK I'm ducking out now as Vic's flameproof suit is at the cleaners and I have never had one of my own


Oh and could we at least try to get the terminology right??

MON= one

Crypt = NONE!!!
 

miniwhinny

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Nootka,

"I learned alot during the time I had him and wished for him to descend normally".

Boy, I sure know this feeling. Even being assured that he'll drop I think I must check daily...poor little guy
probably sees me coming and gasps
When he does let the other one go I'll be throwing a party. I told hubby a few days ago that I was heartbroken, the cold weather had made him suck up his one descended one leaving me with a gelding


It is very frustrating for us newbies seeing posts like this. There are big time breeders on both sides of the fence. Of course it's upsetting, everyone wants their dream stud to have all the plumbing as soon as possible and despite assurances that everything is okay it's still the hardest thing I've had to deal with with my boy.

Gosh and I going to be happy when it falls!!!!!!
 

justaboutgeese

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It just amazes me that people believe its normal to have them retain a testicle until two, three or five and call it normal. Keep breeding those stallions and it will be. Both testicles should be redily available shortly after birth. I stand firmly with Rabbitsfitz" on this one (she is behind me because the flame proof suit is in the cleaners. The comment about big breeders saying its fine means its fine that they get to use a stallion that should be used for teasing rather than breeding.
 
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