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CNC MINIS

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Hello,

I have a 2 year old colt that has one testicle down and the other one is no where to be seen or felt, I contacted the breeder

because I bought this horse for a breeding stallion this is what they told me in the e-mail

He should be checked to see if he has good semen and if he has no sperm--bring him back. And I will try to replace him. But with one down he should be OK to breed and should settle mares almost as good as one with both down. And probably the one is in the ring or close to his body and will come down after you use him. Are you breeding him now?? He should settle mares as a 2 year old.

I have always understood that a cryptoid is not acceptable to breed and it can be passed.

I am at a loss what would you do
 

ontherisefarm

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Hi there. You will get a few different responses to this inquiry. One will say that he should be gelded and not bred. A true crypt should not be bred but.....

Sometimes it does take colts longer to drop and mature. His other testicle could quite easily be at the ring and just hasnt dropped down into his sack. I guess this for you is what you feel is right. If you arent comfortable with it dont breed him until his other drops. I wouldnt necessarily count him out yet but he might not be ready until next year.
 

SHANA

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Some colts don't drop until they are 3 but have your vet check him, if he feels that he will not drop then have him give you a written statement and then return him for either a full refund, or a colt of similar value from the breeder.
 

Carolyn R

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I agree, have the vet check him. While some colts do take longer to descend, it is not looked upon favorably in a reputable breeding program.

It is possible it is hiding, but by this age it should be fully dropped. The colt born here this year had his berries the day he hit the ground. One is well descended into the sac at this point, the other is floating just beneath the skin, but is visible to the sight and touch and is the same size as the other. I am expecting it to be well set into the sack in a couple weeks.

Quite honestly, if the vet can't find it, I personally would not be using this boy as a stud, sperm or not, but that is my opinion (no sarcasm intended, but to have someone say if he has sperm, he's good to go, is a crock, that is as bad as saying it has a uterus, breed it, just MHO).

Carolyn
 
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Jill

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I wouldn't think of breeding him until he dropped. I'm not sure how I'd feel about using a horse for breeding if he didn't drop until into his 2nd year (really, I probably would not do it).

Whether or not the breeder is obligated to take him back would depend on if they had an guarantees about his testicles being descended, I would think. He may well be fertile, but he may also never drop. They can still be fertile and be cryptorchid, but most people wouldn't want to breed to a cryptorchid stallion.

Sorry you are having to worry with this issue.
 

Matt73

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My stallion Teddy didn't drop his other one until 2 1/2 years of age. The vet saw him and basically said "Good Luck" when I mentioned that he may still drop the other one. He said he couldn't even feel it. Months later, lo and behold, I felt a little berry
. Now it's a big ole testicle like the other one.
 

ozymandias

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I would never consider breeding a 2 year old who hasn't dropped even if he drops the other one when he's older. One reason so many USA minis drop late is because we breeders/owners accept it as being okay. Sorry this has happened to you. I know personally if I was shopping for a stallion I'd want them both to be down no later than a year and would want a written guarantee saying as much.
 

CNC MINIS

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I have NOT and will NOT breed him untill he drops if he does. I will have my vet palpate him to see what he thinks. I have talked with him a little on the phone about this colt and he said he should be dropped by now.

But I cannot believe the breeder (a very reputable breeder) would say breed him and to imply to keep breeding him even if he never drops as long as he is fertile, just blows me away.
 

ozymandias

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But I cannot believe the breeder (a very reputable breeder) would say breed him and to imply to keep breeding him even if he never drops as long as he is fertile, just blows me away.
Sadly, that doesn't surprise me at all. IMO it's 100% buyer beware on every horse purchase no matter who you buy from. Just from reading this message board and reading breeders responses to various issues my eyes sure have opened to peoples honesty and ethics. Sad it's that way. Protect yourself in writing and you'll have no regrets and if a breeder doesn't agree - shop eleswhere - the market is flooded with great horses.
 

Michelle@wescofarms

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I had a stallion here that did not drop until he was close to three. He was very slow to mature, so it might just be some lines that are slower than other - but this is just conjecture on my part!

Is your stallion's testicle that is down large or on the smallish side? If it's large the 'hidden' one may be to large to drop down normally.

** The breeder isn't lying that he can cover mares, etc., but I don't know any reputable breeders that would advise breeding a horse with only one testicle visible! Hope you had a contract. I would NOT breed a stallion without both being descended.

Cryptorchidism supposedly is highly inheritable, but I've often wondered (unless it passes somehow on the mares genes to her son) if all cryps where gelded you wouldn't be passing a gene to create more and I don't know anyone that purposely breeds them so ??? I know it can be done and I'm sure there are those that do, but why?
 

Joanne

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There was an article in The Horse magazine a couple of years ago saying that they knew ponys and miniature horses took longer to drop then full size horses. It did not affect their breeding.

I can find that reference for you if you wish.

If you feel this is a valuable stallion and care about him I would give him some time. He is still young. As others have stated, some just take longer to drop.

If you are not interested in breeding him in the future then there are more issues involved then just his testicles.

Some horses are just worth the wait IMHO.

I have small mares that I do not breed until they are five years old. Same thing. Worth the wait.
 

Minimor

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Michelle, as I understand it cryptorchidism is passed on through the mares--it doesn't have to be a direct father to son thing, it could pass down though the daughters of a crypt stallion.

As long as people subscribe to the theory that it is normal for Minis to take longer to drop, and therefore acceptable to keep breeding these late developers, then the Minis will have a tendency to continue to be late to drop in comparison to the big horse breeds. If everyone stopped using stallions that didn't drop until after they were 2 years old (as an example...you might want to say 18 or 12 months instead of two years) then in a few generations we might see it become the rule that most Miniatures drop before they are 2 years old...or 18 or 12 months old.

It's much like the locking stifle problem....too many breeders take the attitude that locking stifle is common and therefore "normal" in miniatures, and therefore it isn't a problem, and they continue to breed horses that have stifle issues. And so it continues to be common for Miniatures to have stifle problems...

More people need to step up to the plate and admit this is a problem ("this" being either stifle problems or late dropping problems, whichever is the subject being discussed) and make the choice to eliminate this problem from the breeding pool. It would be for the overall improvement of the breed.

I don't breed mares until they are 4 or 5 or 6 just because I want them to have time to grow up and mature & probably have some driving training. I won't breed with a stallion that as a 2 year old doesn't have both his testicles "there", and it doesn't matter if they show up when he's 2 1/2 or 3 or even 2 years and one month--I'm not ever going to breed with him, because I don't want future colts that I have to wait on. I like them to be "there" sooner rather than later!
 

ozymandias

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As long as people subscribe to the theory that it is normal for Minis to take longer to drop, and therefore acceptable to keep breeding these late developers, then the Minis will have a tendency to continue to be late to drop in comparison to the big horse breeds. If everyone stopped using stallions that didn't drop until after they were 2 years old (as an example...you might want to say 18 or 12 months instead of two years) then in a few generations we might see it become the rule that most Miniatures drop before they are 2 years old...or 18 or 12 months old.
 

Matt73

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Quite frankly, a late descending testicle and a locking stifle are two completely separate issues; if the testicle doesn't drop by 3, geld him. I would never breed a horse that even had a tendency to lock early in life and "grow" out of it. However...if I had an awesomely built mini that dropped at 3, I would not hesitate to breed him in a heartbeat. The same goes for a big horse (although, a late descending testicle is far more rare and most people would have gelded long before waiting until 3 years of age).
 

Minimor

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Of course they are two separate issues!
I made the comparison because both are things that many people say are "normal" in Minis--a good many people make excuses why one or the other or both conditions are acceptable in breeding animals...and IMO both are conditions that breeders should be attempting to breed out of Miniatures, rather than making excuses for and continuing to to breed it into their horses.

I personally subscribe to the belief that if both testicles haven't shown up long before the horse is 2 years old then he shouldn't be bred with. I'd wait it out until a horse is 3 if I had to, but only to geld him...not to breed with him. Thankfully I've never had to wait that long to geld, though one of the first colts I bought did take a full 2 years for the first one to show up & then the 2nd one was just a few weeks behind.
 

Jill

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I wonder in horses with only one descended, if they were both down at birth?

In all the male horses I have foaled or purchased as stallions or colts, they were down at birth, with two possible exceptions (both of whom were able to geld "the normal way" -- I just don't know for sure they were down at birth as I didn't know them then / didn't ask the breeder).
 

mmmorgans

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I am glad to hear that you will not use him if both testicles have not descended. The breeder should be ashamed of himself/herself for telling you that it is OK as long as he has sperm. It is a serious fault - a disqualification in the show ring - so why would a person use a monorchid stallion for breeding. That is disgraceful - and as I said in a previous thread - BUYER BEWARE. I would like to know who that breeder is so that I can mark them down on my "Do Not Buy From" list!!!!!!!!!!

There are way too many pet quality horses being used as stallions - way too many colts being sold as potential breeding stallions - it is a shame.

I sure hope that your boy does descend fully - some do take longer than others. I feel badly that your "Breeder" that you trusted - has such questionable ethics!!!! JMO. Good luck to you and your boy.
 

Joanne

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Taking the high risk of being flamed......
but feeling that we should have some scientific response rather than anectodal.

Here is a direct quote from a equine veterinarian magazine "The Horse" regarding this isssue. The article is far longer with illustrations and appeared in the January 2005 issue.

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Inguinal cryptorchids, the most common type, are characterized by testes that have failed to descend beyond the inguinal canal, or occasionally lie just under the skin (called ectopic cryptorchids; see "Cryptorchid Anatomy"). Failure of inguinally retained testes to descend might be temporary or permanent. Temporary inguinal cryptorchidism is reported to be most common in ponies and miniature horses, and to mainly affect the right testis. If the condition is temporary, the testes will descend by three years of age. Failure to descend by this time indicates permanent cryptorchidism, a condition seen in all types of horses.

An abdominal cryptorchid is characterized by testes that are still within the body cavity, often near the kidney (see "Cryptorchid Anatomy"). Abdominal cryptorchids can be further classified as complete or incomplete. Complete refers to the retention of both the epididymis (where sperm are stored and mature) and the testis; in such cases the testis tends to be mobile, surrounded by the intestine, and hard to locate. Incomplete abdominal cryptorchids are characterised by the testis being retained within the abdomen, but the epididymis having descended into the inguinal canal. Abdominal cryptorchidism is invariably permanent (unless surgically corrected).

When both testes fail to descend (bilateral), they are normally found within the abdomen (bilateral abdominal). Very occasionally, a stallion might have only one testis (monorchid). The frequency of retention of left and right testes appears to be the same, although significantly more left retained testes appear in the abdomen and more right testes in the inguinal region.

There is considerable debate as to whether the condition is inherited. Circumstantial evidence and some research work does support this view, as well as suggesting a higher incidence in ponies.

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They do mention that this occurs in full sized horses as well, and that these horses are often used for breeding if they are valuable animals, though AI might be used to increase their production. Or in the case of Thoroughbreds, limiting their book of mares to 50-60 mares a season.

This article is worth reading in its entirety for anyone interested in the latest scientific research on the subject.
 

ozymandias

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I always admire Rabbitfizz's opinion on this subject. She's adamant about not tolerating late droppers, as are other Brits...and in the U.K. late droppers virtually don't exist.

I'd go as far as not buying a mare from a breeder who tolerates "late bloomers" because she could pass on that gene/tendancy also.

If for no other reason than - who wants to pay extra to geld a crypt. This breed needs more geldings but who wants to pay crypt prices just to geld !
 
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