CRITIQUE YOUR OWN HORSE

[SunQuest]

Hi Susanne,

I just love Mingus!!

Well, I am one that has quit posting critiques as I got tired of the agrivation of doing so.............

But, here is a post that I looked up in the archives that I had posted well over a year ago. The archive was missing the picture because of a server change, so I decided to copy that post to here. It gives a good general basis of what one looks for, even if I am not deadly accurate in my placement of the lines. I don't have a larger picture to work from, and well, with this boy being so HUGE, you couldn't see any of the points on him easily in real life, forget in the picture. Lucky for me, he isn't that big now!

Anyway, here is the post...

This is SQ JD Black Label.

He is an AMHR gelding that is 35.50 inches tall and 4 years old in this picture. He is out of a mare that is 37" and was breed for miniature harness racing, and he is by our 33" Mountain High Stallion that is a Whittmaack's Mickey Mouse grandson. He is shown in pasture condition and is VERY VERY overweight. I estimated that he was at least 50 to 75 pounds overweight in that picture (normally weighs approx. 300 pounds and the tape measurements indicated that he was around 350 pounds in this photo!) There are no severe flaws or nasty attitude that forced us to geld him. It is just that we thought an ok "B" stallion would be a great "B" gelding. And since we own both parents, well...

He is not standing square in this picture and the near hind (right hind) leg is forward making it even harder to judge him along with the photographer taking the picture from too low of an angle for an ideal picture. And it was a really windy day which you can see that his tail is blown off to one side as well. All of this causes his tail to look much lower set than it is in reality, and since he isn't set up, he hasn't "popped" his back and hind quarters into a show stance that would make his croup more level. This horse has been shown locally and has placed in every class he has ever been in, including some large open breed classes.

What you can't see in this picture and what I don't have any pictures of him are the front and rear shots, and looking down his back line. I will tell you that his front and rear legs as viewed from directly in front of and behind him are very straight. He does not toe out or toe in. His bite is perfect. When standing behind him and looking down along his back bone, the back is straight from tail to poll and the line drawn from the left and right sides of the hip at "B" is perpendicular to the back bone.

Now for critiquing what we can see.

First thing I would tell someone who wanted to show JD is to exercise him and get that extra 50 to 75 pounds off of him!!! This horse is no way in show condition in this picture and it is NOT fare to judge him due to that, but I will anyway as this if the best picture I have.

Also, please note that the location of the lines are approximate as this horse is so fat that unless one palpated him and put markers on him, one would have a hard time of finding the absolute point in the pictures. (And of course anyone who has tried to draw on a computer knows that is hard in it's self!)

Lets talk first about overall balance. To determine balance, you would look at the purple lines labeled A (point of buttocks), B (point of hip), C (point of withers), and D (point of shoulder). If you measure the distance between these lines, they should all be equal. On JD, they are not exactly equal, but in general they are better than 50% of the minis that I see, making him average to a little above average. If I could change one thing on the balance, I would move line C back towards line B. Because JD's shoulder is a little steep, it is making his front end lighter and back longer than the rear end. So in other words, From point of withers ( C) to point of shoulder (D) is less than the distance from point of buttocks (A) to point of hips (B). And the distance from the point of the hips (B) to point of the withers ( C) is longer than the distance from the point of buttocks (A) to the point of hips (B) because of the steep shoulder.

Next, how did I determine that the distance from line A to B is the correct one to refer the other distances too? This is a little complex. First, I looked at the distance from his poll (Between the ears) to the point of withers. I compared that to the distance from lines A to C. On JD, these distances are almost equal. That means that his neck length is, in theory, just long enough for his body length although I would prefer a little longer neck due to my own preferences. Next, I looked specifically at his hind end. What a person needs to know is that you want a hind end that is ideally 33.33% or better of the body length as the hind end is the "engine" of the horse. This is where the power of a horse comes from. Now, how to figure out that percentage. First take a photo from dead center of the horse like I did here. Next, draw a line from the point of the buttocks (G or K) to the point of hip (H), which is represented by a red line. Then draw a second line from the point of buttocks (G or K) to the point of shoulder (L), which is represented by the blue line. I then measured these two lines. In my photo the red line (G to H) measured .875" and the blue line (K to L) measured 2.625" in length. Next, to get the percentage divide the red line length by the blue line length (.875 divided by 2.625 = .3333 with the "3" repeating forever). Now convert the decimal number into a percentage by moving the decimal 2 places to the right. The measurement is now 33.33 %. This means that this horse's rump comprises 1/3 of the horse's overall body length. This is VERY good for a mini. BUT.... in general, this is on the high side of average on most breeds of horses. Anything above 33% is considered above average, and anything below 33% is considered below average. Further, anything below 30% is considered very poor. Now on minis, I always have to question is the rump and shoulder too week and the back to long, especially since it seems like most minis are too long in the back (from lines B to C). So now, when I look at JD, I know the rump area is right for his overall length. It is the back that is too long. And the shoulder is what is causing that to be this way.

Lets now look at JD's loin and lumbar area. Because I don't have a top view of the horse to show you, I will do the best I can to describe this area and what one wants from it. This area is CRITICAL to connecting the hind end (engine) to the rest of the car... err horse. Think of the loin as the horse's transmission. It doesn't matter how nice the horse's engine is the transmission doesn't work well. Several things to remember in regards to the back. You want most of the back to be taken up by the space that the ribs occupy. From the end of the vertebrae where the last rib joins in to the back to the Lumbar sacral joint (E) needs to be as short as possible. While miniatures do not carry weight on their backs, this area is even more important in the riding horse and the brood mare. And the longer this area is, the higher the chances of a horse becoming sway backed as the ligaments and tendons are longer and can be injured easier. So, what one wants to see is the point represented by the line at E be as far forward towards line B. Ideally, E would be almost in line with B or F. (Physically, point E can NOT be past the point of the hips (F)) So, if you view the horse from above the back, you would draw a line connecting the left and right points of the hip. Then from each side of the hip you would draw a line to where the hip physically connects to the back (Lumbar sacral joint). Ideally you want this to make a really really wide triangle with the point of the triangle being as close to the base of the triangle (the point of the hips (F)) as possible.

On JD, there is a lot of room for improvement in this area. BUT, on most minis this is one of the weakest areas on the horse! And many times it is one of the most overlooked areas as well! I hear all to often that I want a mare with a long back so that there is plenty of room for the foal. In reality you want a horse with a long back that is taken up by mostly ribs and a short lumbar area. This way the foal is putting less stress on the horse's weakest point of the back and the fetus is better protected by the bone structure of the mare. If I have to choose between a horse with a weak lumbar area and one with a weak hip, I would take the one with the weak hip and rate it higher than the one with a weak lumbar area, although in reality, the two are often very connected and where there is a week hip there is often a weak or overly long lumbar area as well. The reason I say that I would place a weaker hip over a weak lumbar area is that a horse with a week lumbar area has a weak back which makes it harder for the hind end to drive a horse forward and for the horse to collect. Also, that area being week predisposes a horse to a life time of possible back problems as the tendons, ligaments and muscles in that area are more likely break down as the horse ages turning the horse into a sway backed animal. This area is kind of related to the lower back area in humans. Any of you with lower back issues know the problems this can create.

Now, the triangle in red going from the point of the buttocks (G) to the point of the hip (H) to the stifle joint (J). If you look at this triangle, the sides are all just about equal. This means that the hip is not overly weak on JD. If the hip was week, the line from G to J would be shorter than the line from G to H. In other words, the stifle would be week and the hip line would move more vertical making the overall distance from lines A to B shorter. On top of that, the tail would be set lover on the horse as well.

Ok, how else does that steep shoulder effect JD? The angle of his shoulder is making his natural head and neck set lower. Look at the underline side of his neck. While that line along the bottom of the neck is smooth, indicating he is not ewe necked, I would like to see where the neck joins the chest to be a little higher up on the chest. Of course to do that, the withers would have to move back towards the rump some and the shoulder angle would then flatten out some and allow the neck to come out of the body at a higher angle. But I would not fault this horse if compared to a QH. But compare to the Arab, there would be fault.

Lets briefly look at his hooves and pasterns (area just above the hooves). If you look at the front edge of the front leg where the white line is drawn, you will notice that the white line is approximately parallel to the white line showing the slope of the shoulder. THIS IS IMPORTANT! Your horse's feet should be trimmed so that these two lines are parallel That means the pastern and hoof angles are the same so that they create an unbroken line! Now on JD, he is leaning forward so the pastern angle looks a bit more sloped, but in reality it isn't when he stands natural. Now look at the white line showing the pastern angle on the hind legs. Notice that this line is almost parallel to the red line running from G to J. Again THIS IS IMPORTANT! This angle should match. I can't begin to tell you all how many horses I have seen with the hooves trimmed too steep and causing the horse to have a broken line from pastern to toe on the hoof which in turn causes horses to go club footed, especially when trimmed that way at a young age! And any horse that is club footed should NOT be considered sound. The feet and legs will not hold up to the pounding that they were designed to take. And if the hoof angle is steep enough, the coffin bone that lays in the hoof will be effected. Think of it as a woman who walking for 8 hours steady while wearing 4" heels! On his hind legs, if you square him up and run a verticle line from the point of the buttocks to the ground, the back of his cannon bone would lay fully along that line which is good. This means that he is not camped under or camped out. And although it is difficult to see due to him leaning forward to reach for an invisible treat, his front legs when viewed from the side are straight as well. A line running through the center of the fore arm, knee, and cannon bone is straight. He is neither over or under in the knee. So in general he has good legs.

Now the head. While JD has a better head than his dam's head, there is still room for improvement here. I would like to see is head a tiny bit shorter than it is. His neck is just barely shy of being 1 and 1/2 times the length of his head. His larger head makes him appear to be heavier on the front end of the horse. As far as the proportions on the head it's self, I would like to see the nose (between the muzzle and the eye) to be a little shorter. Again a front shot of the head would show the proportions better. From the front, ideally the poll to a horizontal line connecting the eyes would be the same distance apart as the line from the eyes to where a properly fitted halter noseband would lay which also would be the same distance apart from where the halter noseband to the end of the upper lip would be. What you want is a head that is 3 equal parts. JD is pretty good about his proportions, but his nose area is a little longer... more like a Thoroughbred. I prefer Arab, so would like the nose to be a little shorter. Of course he would look good with his overall build with the head just shrunk down a little. Again, the head size on minis compared to the body size almost always gives away that one is looking at a mini and not another breed. His throat latch could be cleaner, but again that relates to the neck set and the fact that his steep shoulder causes his neck to be lower in carriage. The lower segment of the 3 parts of the neck is longer than the upper. This means that he will have a slightly harder time flexing the curve at the poll and counter flexing the curve where the neck joins the body to obtain true collection. Ideally I would like to see the lengths of those two curves switched where the straight part of the neck (middle part) has a shallow (shorter) curve that joins the body, and a longer deeper curve at the poll that would open the throat latch area and allow the horse to tuck at the poll.

And finally, JD would have longer looking legs if we conditioned him and made him get to a proper weight as well! This picture just does not do him justice. But I love this boy. He is super calm when handled and I can trust him. Overall he is well built and presents a pleasing picture when he moves and has a kind eye. He can obtain a true extended English trot with a moderate amount of knee action. He basically has normal large horse movement and doesn't waddle when viewed from behind. (Although his tummy does jiggle like a bowl of jelly! LOL) This is a horse that I would trust with a beginner when he is fully trained to a cart. And that was what I was after when we bred his parents. His faults are not as great as either of his parents. Truly he is what I was hoping would happen with that cross.

 

[miniaddiction]

This is my Katie(SS Unique Touch Of Class). She will be two in november

This is katie when she first came to me last year as an almost yearling.

This is Katie a couple of months later when her colour came back in.

Her butt which i just love and think is in pretty good shape for a yearling...

And this is a better body shot but a terrible head shot.

So.......

Faults(still learning & barn blind)

Longish head( i love it though)

Long ears

Neck ties in a little low to chest

Upside down neck muscle(not her fault)

Very deep girth

Stong Pionts

Fantastic colour!!!

Very fine legs

Great butt

nice body

Great mover

Lovely Eyes

Feel free to add anything you want to I have had her critiqued before...

Great thread, Helen

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Nila, now THERE is someone who truly knows their conformation! Good for you for posting a true anatomical study and not just an "I like" or "I don't like x in a horse." Not everyone has the time to devote to such studies, but those proportional comparisons are invaluable in judging a horse. A great reference for those interested in studying this is the three part series "Principles of Conformation Analysis," by Dr. Deb Bennett. Slim, written for the beginner, but very comprehensive and informative with reasons given for everything.

Helen, you might want to close the image tags so we can actually see your pictures! The last one is missing a "g" too.

Leia

 

[miniaddiction]

Thanks leia all fixed!

 

[Tobey]

Great thread!! I have always thought everyone was so picky and I was scared to have my animals critiqued. Also--I learned that one of my minis has a ewe neck--I knew there was something to it but didn't know what to call it. Anyway, I don't really know much about critiqueing but I'll give it a shot. Please, please feel free to critique too. Here's my boy Phantom

Faults:

Thick, short neck

Long Ears?

Short legs

Non-dishy head

Strong Points:

Short back

Tail set?

I'm not good at critiqueing butts either!! So I left that out.

 

[susanne]

Tobey,

I'm not a voice of experience, but I had to chime in on your boy...

I think you left off a lot of Phantom's strong points!

He has a beautiful head and lovely eyes. Photo #2 shows how upheaded he is, and it looks like he has a nicely sloped shoulder. His hip is deep and his tailset is nice.

Photo #1 does not do him justice, so I would not put that photo up for critique. In #2, while his neck isn't exactly long, it looks like a bit of sweating would make a big difference... his coloring creates an optical illusion, making his neck look shorter.

I really like this guy...how tall is he? (and I hope you put sunscreen on that sweet little pink nose!)

 

[Tobey]

Susanne,

Thank you! This is my first stallion and I think we did pretty darn good if I say so myself

I agree with his coloring--sometimes it is hard to get past that to really look at him. His coloring isn't breath-taking like others and is almost distracting I think but when I look at him I see a very well proportioned horse. He has a great pedigree and most importantly he is a real genuine sweetheart, very well mannered, and a gentleman with the ladies!

I am so spoiled by him that I don't think another stallion would measure up (parden the pun)

He is 29" (last measured) and is 3 years old. I was going to send him to a trainer this year- a well known one agreed to take him which is a compliment in itself but I just couldn't part with him. Hopefully I'm not sorry but he is young and if we decide he can go another year. Sunscreen yes! My husband thinks I'm crazy

 

[SunQuest]

Nila, now THERE is someone who truly knows their conformation! Good for you for posting a true anatomical study and not just an "I like" or "I don't like x in a horse." Not everyone has the time to devote to such studies, but those proportional comparisons are invaluable in judging a horse. A great reference for those interested in studying this is the three part series "Principles of Conformation Analysis," by Dr. Deb Bennett. Slim, written for the beginner, but very comprehensive and informative with reasons given for everything.
Helen, you might want to close the image tags so we can actually see your pictures!  The last one is missing a "g" too.

Leia

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Hi Leia... Ah schucks... Thanks for the nice complement. You let my little secret out of the bag though! LOL!!!! For years I have been saying that those books by Dr Deb Bennett are the best starting place for gaining knowledge on conformation!!!! I found them just before the LB site was created way back when the internet was brand new technology! Ugg... that seems SOOO long ago!

When I was in 4-H, I competed and did well at the state level in horse judging competions. Lack of money is what prevented me from moving on to national competition in 4-H horse judging. But... I always felt like I was just winging it for my reasons on my class placement as each judging competion forced one to give reasons as to why a class was placed the way it was in that judging competition. So for my highschool years, when I was in 4-H, I searched for the answers as to what one looks for, and what faults are worse than others, after trying to get the answers from my 4-H leaders who really had only the general basics like straight legs, no ewe neck, ect. But the rest I always felt weird about as it became "personal preference because one likes this look better than that look" or "that is just how this breed should look" and that just didn't sit quite right with me as it wasn't logical, and my gut feeling told me that there was a very logical way of determining why an individual is better than another for a certain ideal that encompasses the use of that animal. Anyway, even after 4-H I continued to look for the answers of what judges should be looking for and bought any and every magazine that did critiques at the time, which wasn't that many, I still felt like something was really missing from my knowledge of conformation. Well, about 5 to 6 years later I was very lucky and was at a Horse Expo and stumbled across this set of 3 books by Dr. Deb. Finally I had found my answers after years of trying to really understand how people "in the know" had gotten their idea of where to place a horse in a class! I had found a very logical, and often mathmatical, approach that suited my tastes to a T. Just perfect for a person like myself who is works in engineering designing things!

Yep, I highly recommend those books to anyone who wishes to gain more knowledge about conformation, and even if one doesn't really really study them, one will learn much just by reading them once.

 

[Jaxjag2000]

Where can you find those book by Dr. Deb? I googled them and looked at Amazon.com with no luck :-(

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

There are so many different opinions and ideas of what is correct or not. A book canonly be so helpful

I have said it before my suggest is always to learn what you can read others info and then go and check out there website look at there horses see if they match conformation wise what the owners say they do. Once you find those that have horses you strive for .. you will find most will be more then willing to be your mentors and help you learn. I have found many great mentors along the way

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Amazon does have them, but apparently not all of them and all copies second-hand with no pictures, etc. I looked up Deb Bennett's website and found this:

Equine Studies Institute

If you scroll down that page (where I found a bunch of fascinating things I didn't know about and now want to order!) you'll find all three books near the bottom.

Feel free to explore the website, I know I will be. Some interesting stuff there!

Leia

 

[runamuk]

Also along Ruffn tuff's line of thought.......it depends on what breed/ or type of horse you are discussing........

I would never go to a q-horse breeder to learn proper conformation of a Saddlebred.......

There are books on conformation out there for almost every breed...with the Miniatures it is a little more confusing due to the numerous types ........some conformation faults are consistently faults however some breeds have traits that are required for the breed that would be considered horrible faults in another breed.........clear as mud right

I am not a big fan of the Deb Bennet books BUT it is because her slant is toward q-horse and stock type conformation.......

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I find your comments very interesting, runamuk.

And I mean that, I'm not being fascetious! It's been a long time since I went through those books cover to cover, maybe I need to do it again. I'm an Arab person so I usually notice any bias toward stock types and I don't remember seeing that in her books. Guess I need to go read again so I know what I'm talking about!

(Note- I just went and reviewed the books. Seems to me there are as many pictures of TB's, Morgans, Arabs, gaited horses, and WB's as there are stock horses. Perhaps if you come from a background that dealt solidly with for instance Saddlebreds, it seems overly weighed towards stock breeds. I'm coming at it from a more 4-H or local saddleclub background so the breed mix seemed normal to me.)

I would never go to a q-horse breeder to learn proper conformation of a Saddlebred.......

My understanding was that correct conformation is correct conformation. The purpose of conformational study is to determine what each individual is capable of, what they're good at, and what their weaknesses are. A true conformational flaw in a Saddlebred, i.e. a weak back or being over at the knees, is still a flaw in a QH because that physical trait predisposes the horse to injury. There are some traits that are universally bad. These are pathogenic (structured so as to predispose to injury or damage.) The rest of it is either good or bad depending on what you require the horse to do, and hence each breed has its own standards of perfection based on what it was bred to do.

The main difference between a QH and a Saddlebred, a Clydesdale and an Arab are the angles and lengths of their bones. Combine this with the type and amount of muscling over those bones, and you have the hundred and one thousand different outlines you can find in the horse world.

Ah, who am I kidding? I'm no expert, but this stuff is fascinating to me! LOL

Leia

 

[SunQuest]

My understanding was that correct conformation is correct conformation. The purpose of conformational study is to determine what each individual is capable of, what they're good at, and what their weaknesses are. A true conformational flaw in a Saddlebred, i.e. a weak back or being over at the knees, is still a flaw in a QH because that physical trait predisposes the horse to injury. There are some traits that are universally bad. These are pathogenic (structured so as to predispose to injury or damage.) The rest of it is either good or bad depending on what you require the horse to do, and hence each breed has its own standards of perfection based on what it was bred to do.

Exactly!!!

And I didn't notice any biased opinions towards stock breeds and I am a major Arab fan.

Oh the set of books were discontinued for a short time. Then Dr. Deb opened the Equine Studies Institute and had the books put back into print to sell on her site and they are actually cheaper now than when I got mine originally. I have ordered from the Equine Studies Institute without any issues, so no need to buy used if any are interested.

As far as finding mentors, many people don't have the money nor access to what they would ideally park in their pastures... I know I don't have what it takes dollar wise to have my ideal of conformation that I would like in my pasture. Then there are those that fall for the poor little, less than perfect, helpless ones yet they have far more knowledge than I could ever dream to have. Doesn't mean that they have less knowledge because their horses are not so pretty or they don't have a great web site. Then there are those that have tons of money and access to the most glamourous animals who pay others to do everything including produce the prettiest web site in the world, and yet they don't know jack about those animals or what is good or not as they pay others to take care of that... (some puppy mills come to mind...) And there are even numerous sites that have photos that have been altered to make the horses look much better than they really are! And many don't have the talent to take a good photo of their horse that best showcases them and many can't afford a good photographer. Heck, many people are so good with photography that they actually could make a diamond look like a lump of coal even though they are trying their best for a perfect picture of that diamond. So to say that pictures of horses on someone's web site equate to someone's knowledge is not necessarily the truth. I pesonally prefer to be much more open minded and wait until I get to know them before I decide if they are worth having as a mentor as I have learned a long time ago that a farmer in a broken down, beat up, rusted out 20 year old vehicle that is wearing jeans that are ripped to shreds and a warped dirty old cowboy hat may just really be one of the wealthiest people in the world and had worked very very hard starting with nothing to build his multi-million dollar company. (True story to that one!) In other words, never judge a book by it's cover as sooner or later one may really miss out on something wonderful because they thought that the person wasn't up to their standards.

 

[runamuk]

There are some traits that are universally bad. These are pathogenic (structured so as to predispose to injury or damage.)

you are correct and that is what I also said.........hmmmm ok let me give you an example

go look at peruvian paso's then watch one move now compare to an arabian......if I judged a peruvian by arabian standards the peruvian is gooserumped and has a paddling movement both horribly horribly incorrect for an arab BUT required for a peruvian it is part of what defines the breed. My experience is q-horses do not have the degree of slope to the shoulder that we all tought here in fact most of them have quite straight shoulders and low tail sets yet for the breed that is correct. However many of the q-horse fanciers would consider the lack of gaskin muscle to be a serious flaw in many of the lighter breeds.......and long backs if you look at most of the carriage breeds they tend toward longer backs with extreme laid back shoulders this is proper for driving animals and desirable to some extent. So all conformation analysis must be considered in context......some of the standard across the board type flaws are usually a structural deformity that leads to breakdown not just a deviation from one mans/womans ideal......

 

[Ashley]

THis thread was intresting to read. That said I will not put any horses up for this anymore either, a year or so ago I had one of my mares tore apart with out even asking anything about her. Simply cause she was bought at a sale, she was presumed to be junk, and not show quality. HOwever she didnt have any problem getting grands in the ring.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

runamuk once again I agree with you. If you go form to function then that leaves even more open or gray area in conformation.

A gaited horse will have a much different hind end i then a QH west pleasure horse (and yes this can include leg structure)in fact one will look very wrong structure wise to the other but yet that is what is needed for that breed.

Yes over at the knees is over at the knees, and a ewe neck is a ewe neck but bottom line is one breeds idea of a good hip and hind end will be different then another and what is a "fault" in one may be needed and looked for in another.

And Nila i agree with you that one should always strive to have better in there own barns however.. there comes a time where you have to say this isn't what I want or am looking for so then why am I breeding it? I personally think this is a bigger issue with our breed then many others. (and something i have been guilty of whenI first started and am trying very hard to change in my own herd although I have a ways to go and alot to learn)

I take strong offense to implying that I feel some arent up to my standards that isnt what this is about(although I will admit that perhaps I am reading more into that statement then need be this heat does do bad things to people and I WILL have A/C next year)

What this is about is how easy it is for some to tell others how to find conformation, how to decide what is breeding quality, how to train a horse to drive, or ride or how to apply emergency care or trim hooves or a million other things when the bottom line is they dont know or havent done it themselves.

I am quick to say I have and continue to learn from everyone those with years of experience and those that are new just coming into horses and the breed.

It isnt about being up to anyones standards it is about realizing it is VERY easy to say or be anything in ones own mind

and for ideas to be very different then where somene else may want to go. I dont EVER say anyone is or isnt up to my standards as I dont have much in the way of standards other then people being honest about who they are, being fair and empathetic and taking care of there kids and animals and loved ones.

You are very right about photos and how some great photographers can make an avg horse look wonderful and vice versa - (and yep some horse owners , like yourself Nila are professional photograpers or have family members that are and that helps alot

) but even with not so good photos you can still easily see conformation and type in a herd.

I can see past an altered photo and I can see on others websites if they have horses that truly meet the standard of conformation they say they have and or want. I think it is very easy for me to base my personal idea of who I opt to have as a mentor by what they choose to breed in there own program and there own ideas and breeding ethics.

Now that doesn't mean that my standard is the same as yours or anyone else's but the one thing I have learned is that I NEVER take anyones word on there knowledge from what they say online. The proof is in the pudding for me. That means the horses they own, the horses they have produced, the horses they opt to buy, the actual performance things they have done ect. I have met those that claim to know it all and was more then shocked to see there herd in person and how different it was from what they said they had, I have met those that are rather quiet and don't say much or say they don't know much and have tons of knowledge. I have met "rescue" people over the years whose own horses are thin and not very healthy looking. I can learn from all of the above but .. I wont choose a mentor that doesn't practice what they preach for me that just doesn't make sense and wouldn't be doing me or them justice.

My point with that statement about checking out who is saying what is to make sure that they are on the same page as you and where you want to go before you assume that they truly know more then you or you take there word on something such as breeding quality ect.

There are so many different ideas of what is correct and one of the keys to learning is to find those who you strive to be more like and seek them out as mentors. Seeing as some of those people maybe across the country sometimes all you have is there website and there photos to give you an idea - and once you start a "relationship" with them you will quickly learn if they are what you are looking for in a knowledgeable mentor if they put there money where there mouth is so to speak or if they are someone who just can talk the talk As well as if they are truly someone you can learn from.

I think all of us no matter how much experience one has can always use mentors as well as newbies to learn from

I have found many wonderful people who are willing to help me and allow me to see things in my own herd and other horses that I might not have even thought to look at before. I am very grateful to those that take the time to mentor and many of them have there own mentors as well. Without people being willing to take a honest look outside of themselves and there herds our breed wouldn't be making the wonderful changes it has over the past few years.

 

[runamuk]

Lisa I will agree with you again....I find that when looking for a mentor one does not need the winningest or the most money/fanciest just a good honest horse of the style I like.......If I were looking for a true hunter horse in miniature your farm would definately top the list...although your horses each have their own individual style overall your horses are ALL hunters.......now my preference is for saddlebreds ......pretty dang hard to find that look under 42 inches let alone under 34 so my own horses are another type I like which is welsh ponyish.......two so completely different types.......and yet in some ways similar.......

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

lol i was thinking that on the shoulder thread when carol was posting pics.. It is usually pretty easy to tell what "type" or breed someone came from when looking at there minis those who had or have arabs or QH, morgans or saddlebreds, or even NSH or in my case T/B and warmbloods are pretty easy to spot!

Good thing there are so many different types (that all fit well within the conformation needed for the breed) to suit everyone

That is one of the greatest things about minis and I will admit that sometimes I get caught up in type when discussing conformation

 

[SunQuest]

You are very right about photos and how some great photographers can make an avg horse look wonderful and vice versa - (and yep some horse owners , like yourself Nila are professional photograpers or have family members that are and that helps alot  ) but even with not so good photos you can still easily see conformation and type in a herd.

Lisa, I agree with what you say for the most part, as far as conformation needing to be to function. That is what those books are about. Once one has a general basis on what conformation is good for any average use for any breed, then one can then learn what is modified to fit other breeds and their uses. That is really what this whole thread is about. What is a good starting point to go with and from there it changes depending on what one wishes to do with that animal. By knowing the general basics on comformation, one can then look at their herd and say humm... I want to change this and know what they need to do to accomplish that goal so that the horse's offspring is better able to perform to what they want.

And I agree about the breeding thing and conformation. I have several horses that I have never bred because I don't necessarily think they are breeding material, and that does include mares. And there are some that showed great promise as foals that I am severly disappointed in now. So won't breed them, but doesn't mean that I wish to sell them, as well, I love them even with their faults and feel that their value lies somewhere else. I also have an appointment to geld a group of males this fall leaving me with at the most 1 stallion... And he may get gelded with the rest, I just haven't decided for sure yet on him. Poor fellows....

But I do have a favor to ask you... would you please not refer to me or my family as professional photographers???? I am NOT a professional photographer. I have NEVER been paid for any photos of any kind, and neither has my family! My family and I did do a photo shoot without getting paid once as a nice thing to do for a community service type of event, the rest of the photography activities that we have done is for pure pleasure. Photography is just a second hobby that I truelly enjoy, and frankly, I am the one who takes pictures of horses that look like lumps of coal! LOL... Maybe one day I will get it figured out on what works best, but until then, I am just an amature and have never claimed to be anything but that.