Could someone please explain hardshipping to me

[MiLo Minis]

I realize the AMHR is an offshoot of the ASPC registry but when they first created the American Miniature Horse Registry they wrote a breed standard describing a horse in Miniature: "A small, sound, well-balanced HORSE...", "Since the breed objective is the smallest possible perfect HORSE...".

At what point did the registry change it's mind and decide that we had a breed objective of the smallest possible perfect Shetland Pony? I guess it is when they closed the registry to all other breeds but the Shetland Pony.

Yes we have hardshipping across from the AMHA but that is another Miniature HORSE registry and the only other blood allowed in now is that of the Shetland Pony. Why is it then that we don't have a more specific breed description?

I suppose, if you are really patient, you can bring other breeds in to the AMHR by hardshipping into the AMHA at 5 years of age and then crossing the horse over to AMHR but what a convoluted and excruciatingly slow method of changing a look that is, guess we are really not meant to.

Just when I thought we were getting somewhere with the look and conformation of the Miniature Horse they abruptly changed the goal of the breed but don't seem to have the balls to put it in writing just yet...

Oh yes, Lavern, I am glad to see you have come to your senses, dumped the Shetlands, and returned to the STRAIGHT Miniature!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Yes the breed standard is pretty vague. Any horse under 38" can be in as long as its AMHR, ASPC, AMHA, and Fabella. Like I've said before and I still stand by it how much better are we then a color registry?

I really wish AMHR could get together and come up with more of a breed standard. If it is towards the shetland style then so be it. Which IMO that is where AMHR is going towards.

Here is the way I see it. AMHR needs to think of a way to save its straight miniatures. If it doesn't soon you won't see them in the show ring. Many of them will go to AMHA or sadly drop off somewhere. Breeders won't continue to breed them. Sure they will stick around, but not as much as we will see it into AMHR.

Or go the other away around. AMHR wants to go towards the shetland. Close the hardshipping to both AMHA and Fabella, only allow hardshipping in of the shetlands then for sure we will have our Miniature Congress.

I'm trying to be more open towards the shetland cause I think thats the route AMHR is going. I still love the miniatures, and will still have my 2. But I have no breeding herd I can easily go AMHR/ASPC. I'm trying to learn more about them. I honestly don't have any negatives toward AMHR/ASPC ponies. I just don't want the straight miniature to go from AMHR.

The whole rulebook itself is vague they just need to sit down and rewrite the rulebook and the standard. Does AMHR want to become a breed or do they just want to stay where they are? I want to know what AMHR wants to become in the future.

 

[Mominis]

Just an observation from someone who doesn't have enough sense to keep their mouth shut......

I'm pretty shocked. I have never seen a breed spend so much time shooting itself in the foot as I have since I've gotten into minis. It's funny to me that I don't see the pony people throwing fits about minis, but every second thread on the forums lately has been someone griping about the shetland influence on the miniature horse. Why would a breed that is a number-strong in a recession as the AMHR is spend so much time trying to exclude horses from it's membership? You would think we should be thankful for the opportunity to have so many under 38" participants from so many walks of life. I just don't get it. Maybe someone can explain that to me.

Stepping away and putting on my flame suit...

 

[JMS Miniatures]

But yet you don't see how many people dropping off their minis, dispersing them, or going to AMHA because of the shetland influence?

 

[drivinghoss]

The goal of most breeders in AMHR is to produce the best horse, with the best conformation. Some people, breeders, and judges prefer one body style over another. A miniature Quarter Horse is equal to a miniature Morgan is equal to a miniature Saddlebred, is equal to a miniature Arabian.

 

[disneyhorse]

You are arguing SEMANTICS, MiLo.

A "pony" IS a "HORSE". They are the same species. You can interbreed them, and you don't create a hybrid or any sort of sterile animal with mismatched chromosomes.

A miniature "horse" IS a pony. A pony, to the world of equines, is ANY "horse" that measures under 14.2 hands.

If you took your National Grand Champion halter stallion who measures 32" tall, burned the papers, shipped him to Spain, and sold him at an auction, do you think they would say "Oh, that's not a pony, it's a HORSE"?

Pieces of paper doesn't necessarily change what an animal IS. It just changes the semantics of what it is to some people.

Andrea

To me, they are all beautiful SMALL EQUINES. Horse or pony, I love them all!

 

[ruffian]

Oh what the heck - this is going to get heated anyhow, so I might as well throw some gas on the fire!!

IMO - again - IMO - it's not about the height. It's about the MIND of the horse. A "miniature horse" has the attitude of a full size horse. It's pleasant, easy going, usually easily trained and amenable. Not terribly spooky. Easy to handle. Great around kids, adults, newbies and those who unfamiliar with horses. .

A "Shetland Pony" - IMO is smarter than a horse. Quicker, more alert. More reactive - thusly more animated in the barn and in the ring.

Yes, I've owned several Shetlands. IMO their minds are wired differently. Not WRONGLY - just differently.

To say that there are only semantics between Shetlands and Miniatures is the same thing as saying a Quarter Horse and an Arabian as the same thing.

If Shetlands and miniatures are identical, why did the original creators - Lowell Boone, Bud Soat, Ed Eberth, etc., even make such a break? Why not just keep promoting the Shetland?

OK - let the flames begin!!

 

[disneyhorse]

Oh what the heck - this is going to get heated anyhow, so I might as well throw some gas on the fire!!

IMO - again - IMO - it's not about the height. It's about the MIND of the horse. A "miniature horse" has the attitude of a full size horse. It's pleasant, easy going, usually easily trained and amenable. Not terribly spooky. Easy to handle. Great around kids, adults, newbies and those who unfamiliar with horses. .

A "Shetland Pony" - IMO is smarter than a horse. Quicker, more alert. More reactive - thusly more animated in the barn and in the ring.

Yes, I've owned several Shetlands. IMO their minds are wired differently. Not WRONGLY - just differently.

OK - let the flames begin!!

You're probably right. Saddlebreds, Hackney Horses, Arabians, Thoroughbreds, and other hot breeds are also probably not "full sized horses" because they don't have some of the traits that full sized horses should have in general. They don't have full sized horse MINDS as described above, all the time.

Andrea

 

[disneyhorse]

You're probably right. Saddlebreds, Hackney Horses, Arabians, Thoroughbreds, and other hot breeds are also probably not "full sized horses" because they don't have some of the traits that full sized horses should have in general. They don't have full sized horse MINDS as described above, all the time.

Andrea

Instead of using a measuring stick, we could just employ Equine Psychologists to determine what size horse you have. The Shetlands, Saddlebreds, Arabians, etc. would become ponies and your AMHA miniatures, Percherons, Andalusians, and Quarter Horses would become Full Sized horses. Clydesdales tend to be kind of flighty, so they would measure a little bit smaller than the Quarter horses.

Andrea

 

[alphahorses]

Just an observation from someone who doesn't have enough sense to keep their mouth shut......

I'm pretty shocked. I have never seen a breed spend so much time shooting itself in the foot as I have since I've gotten into minis. It's funny to me that I don't see the pony people throwing fits about minis, but every second thread on the forums lately has been someone griping about the shetland influence on the miniature horse. Why would a breed that is a number-strong in a recession as the AMHR is spend so much time trying to exclude horses from it's membership? You would think we should be thankful for the opportunity to have so many under 38" participants from so many walks of life. I just don't get it. Maybe someone can explain that to me.

Stepping away and putting on my flame suit...

Very well said...

You are arguing SEMANTICS, MiLo.

A "pony" IS a "HORSE". They are the same species. You can interbreed them, and you don't create a hybrid or any sort of sterile animal with mismatched chromosomes.

A miniature "horse" IS a pony. A pony, to the world of equines, is ANY "horse" that measures under 14.2 hands.

If you took your National Grand Champion halter stallion who measures 32" tall, burned the papers, shipped him to Spain, and sold him at an auction, do you think they would say "Oh, that's not a pony, it's a HORSE"?

Pieces of paper doesn't necessarily change what an animal IS. It just changes the semantics of what it is to some people.

Andrea

To me, they are all beautiful SMALL EQUINES. Horse or pony, I love them all!

The term "Horse" was applied for marketing. In the beginning, the public was told stories like "these are arabian horses that were bred down". I remember seeing that on TV as a kid. Bolony. They are almost all shetland ponies with a new name applied for marketing. And even the ones that are not shetlands are descended from ponies that developed in the same herds as the original shetlands. The difference is that they were either rejected by the UK registry (e.g. for having spots) or were never registered. But most miniatures are descendants of those original herds that make up the shetland pony.

Have Gold Melody Boy or Rowdy in your herd? They were shetlands who were used to produce miniatures. So you can't have Buckeroo in your herd w/out having shetland in your herd.

I've never been involved with a registry where people know so little about the history of their breed and are so willing to exclude good horses just to have a better chance of winning.

 

[Cowboy905]

Theres alot of things that will straighten out I beleive as registery grows and gets older and I think the new shetland blood will help make better moving driving horses, and improve on some confirmation traits. But people that make statements and don't completely think about what they are saying.... need to. Or we will find ourselves always running around in circles. I had read this post then went on to read the next post made by Midnight Star Stables on her recent purchase of a very nice DOUBLE AMHR/ASPC filly Mcarthy's Lonsome Dove. I read through everyones comments then found Milo's comment on the filly;

"I am so glad to know the three of you are home safe and sound! She is just GORGEOUS Des and I am soooo happy for you!!!

Seeing YOUR filly standing at centre ring at Nationals made my Nationals for me this year. The only thing better would have been having you sitting beside us!

Really looking forward to seeing you show her next year!!! "

What is it you either like them or you don't? You can't swing back and fourth whenever it best suits you.

 

[stormy]

Mary Lou though you are likely right, it is very hard for us who have refined our breeding programs and selected so carefully to produce a horse in miniature to watch AMHR become the AMSPR. We love what we have made, enjoy them very much and just can not understand the Shetlands hostile takeover of the registry to the point where anything not shetland is despised and excluded. So we continue to try to gain recognition for the value of the straight miniature, not wanting to exclude the shetland miniature but wanting to preserve the straight miniature as a valuable part of the registry also.

I do not want to leave AMHR, love the people, love the shows, but do not want to raise shetlands. Why can both not be valued for what they are in the ring and out of the ring??

 

[rabbitsfizz]

A number of years back we had this same sort of conflict in our Shetland Society (now these are real, hairy little ponies, no mistaking that these are ponies, not horses)

The Miniatures (under 34") were just not able to win, they were less likely to pass their license (for Stallions) they were, basically, less likely to do anything at all.....except SELL!!

We had people lining up down the road, who cared not two figs if the little bundle of fluff could win in the show ring and, again basically, the Standard Shetland people just did not like it, in fact they hated it. We tried to sort it out in a civilised fashion and actually got shouted at at an annual meeting, in front of everyone, and after we had flown up to Edinburgh so that we could be there, too!

Anyway, long story short we (well, not, you understand, me, but someone who I really respect) proposed starting our own, Miniature Society.

That REALLY started something, and a lot of nasty, angry words were said but the core of the revolution held firm and you know what? When everything came down off the ceiling it was all in a different order!

Suddenly we got out regional representation (before, all the council members had come from Scotland and Shetland) Suddenly we got our voice. We did not needa separate society because our own society was suddenly meeting our needs, and, as far as I can see, as I am not involved with Shetlands anymore, the society is still doing a great job with Minis and Standards. They just needed a wake up call to see that if the Mini people went they would have very, very few big breeders left, and that they were just going to have to accept the popularity of the Mini!

Maybe the time has come for a small and peaceful revolution?

If more people are actually against what is happening than are for it then they need to stand up and be heard.....

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I am going to JUMP in to this FRYING PAN, though I should know better.. so REMEMBER.. this is my PERSONAL OPINION..

I see a terrible conflict in the AMHR at this time and in the future..

With OPEN eyes (because I no longer breed... and have been involved in Miniature Horses since 1989).. The influence of TODAYS ASPC Shetlands in the AMHR is here to STAY (unless .. something is done SOON to settle people's minds within AMHR...) To be up to date & competitive with your AMHR breeding program, you NEED get with "the program" of CROSSING your AMHR Minis with TODAYS ASPC Shetlands or you leave the AMHR completely and go to AMHA.. The reason I say go with AMHA is... if you want the so called "straight Miniature" only, the chance of your future foals being UNDER 34" is not good if you infuse the ASPC Shetlands into your AMHA breeding program.

This is the LAST I will state my opinion on this.. other then I wish EVERYONE the best on whatever direction AMHR is going and YOU are going..

Mary Lou I agree with you competely. I was also seriously considering going and showing in AMHA, but after hearing how cut throat this years Worlds was it was not for me. So I am sticking with AMHR. Like I've said I still love my "straight miniatures", but I realize thats not whats winning in the ring, thats what people involved into AMHR are wanting, then so be it. I certaintly don't want to keep going on denying myself and say we will be alright. Even my friends who didn't want to show anymore are now getting involved with the shetlands.

I feel like this years Convention is either going to help or break us. Thats why I'm going. Until then I won't say another word on this subject. Plain and simple no post is going to change anybodys mind. I honestly don't know why we have posts like these anymore, I don't know why I personally bother posting about it. I also don't know why the AMHR/ASPC breeders get so angry. Your ponies have a edge over the miniatures. No one can deny that. I just feel like its either you like it or deal with it, its here to stay. Fine, I don't think anybody is asking you to leave, I just don't want to see the miniatures go.

 

[MiLo Minis]

What I find amusing here is that I did not say one word against the Shetland Pony. Go back and read my original post. I very much like and admire Shetland Ponies and in fact own one. She is a lovely little mare and very much loved. Do I breed her with my Minis? NO. Do I go back and forth on whether I love 'em or hate 'em? NO. Have I said that I would prefer no one breed Miniatures with Shetlands? NO. I can love and admire any Mini that is truly a Mini as long as it is well conformed and of the correct height. I also love and/or admire many breeds of full sized horses.

I have nothing but STRAIGHT Minis in my breeding herd. They are all under 38" and conform as best as I can get them to our rather vague breed standard and my own prediliction for a sound, quiet, well mannered, well conformed Miniature Horse that is capable of doing the job I want them to.

Do I realize that horses and ponies are all equines? YES. But I also realize that there are differences in conformation as well as temperament from breed to breed in pony breeds as well as full size breeds.

Do I realize that there is plenty of Shetland blood in my STRAIGHT Minis? YES. But I also have hardshipped in a lovely Welsh pony mare whose characteristics I love and appreciate and wanted to bring into my breeding pool. Why should I not be able to continue to do so if the registry is going to continue to be half open? Why not put it back to being completely open? OR close it completely and give us a definite breed standard that tells us where the breed is going rather than allowing a certain small group of people to dictate? (That would be judges in the show ring)

What I somewhat resent is being forced to consider nothing but the Shetland Pony for breeding stock and at the same time not being given a more concrete breed description. For those of you who say I can look to the AMHA for breeding stock if I want nothing but STRAIGHT Minis there is a problem with that because I breed for B size Minis that make good family ponies for performance as well as pets. It isn't that I don't admire the smaller Minis, they just aren't what I want to produce just as Shetlands are not what I want to produce. If the playing field was levelled with a more definite breed description I would know if I even wanted to continue to breed Minis.

There already is a Shetland breed and a registry to register those Shetlands into. The AMHR may well be an offshoot of that registry but it has evolved to become it's own entity with separate goals from that of the Shetlands. I really am not sure why, if so many of the Shetland breeders want to have miniature sized Shetlands they haven't introduced a new division in their registry to allow for that - they already have several other divisions.

The whole idea of closing a registry is to make the breed a breed. What I think needs to happen is that the American Miniature Horse Registry needs to poll it's members and see what the majority wants to see happen with the Miniature Horse for the future and then take steps to aim for that goal. Enough of this vague drifting with a small percentage of members making the decisions on what our breed should be.

 

[midnight star stables]

I have good friends with both "Shetlands" and "Straight miniatures" so I am really stuck in a wedge myself. I like miniature horses as a whole, and most of my miniatures are AMHR only. I like a "good horse", and look past paperwork.

I have had 8 minis, and they range from Unregistered, AMHA only, AMHA/AMHR, AMHR, AMHR shetland bred and AMHR/ASPC.

The comment directed at the "minds" of shetland bred horses does bother me. First of all, IMO, ALL living beings are different. That said, all of my AMHR horses that have had "shetland blood" have been the quietest horses I have ever owned. All of my AMHA horses have had pretty vial temperaments. They are by no means "bad" tempered, but have proven more difficult to work with, whether it is clipping, separation from the herd or change in environment. Do I love them any less? No. Does this mean my next AMHA horse will be like that? No. But I am simply pointing out that horses should not be grouped.

When shopping, I the only papers I look for are AMHR - others are nice but not required. I like conformation over "type". I personally like a bold moving horse, with a large trot. You can find a good moving horse in AMHA, AMHR and with Shetlands. Not all are are good movers, but you can find good movers in each. The same can be said about any feature - heads, necks, legs. etc.

I have a hard time with understanding the discrimination of paper work. I'm one of the odd one out though lol

 

[midnight star stables]

Theres alot of things that will straighten out I beleive as registery grows and gets older and I think the new shetland blood will help make better moving driving horses, and improve on some confirmation traits. But people that make statements and don't completely think about what they are saying.... need to. Or we will find ourselves always running around in circles. I had read this post then went on to read the next post made by Midnight Star Stables on her recent purchase of a very nice DOUBLE AMHR/ASPC filly Mcarthy's Lonsome Dove. I read through everyones comments then found Milo's comment on the filly;

"I am so glad to know the three of you are home safe and sound! She is just GORGEOUS Des and I am soooo happy for you!!!

Seeing YOUR filly standing at centre ring at Nationals made my Nationals for me this year. The only thing better would have been having you sitting beside us!

Really looking forward to seeing you show her next year!!! "

What is it you either like them or you don't? You can't swing back and fourth whenever it best suits you.

My shetland had 3 generations on miniatures on her paperwork; She has 12 AMHR horses listed on her AMHR papers. My AMHA/AMHR miniature Joy also has 3 generations of miniatures on her paperwork too; BUT only has 8 AMHR horses listed on her AMHR papers. I have a tiny, stocky AMHA only horse with even less heritage. I think he has 2 generations and only 4 horses on his papers.

 

So tell me, which one is "more miniature"?

 

I can understand some of the hard-shipping negative feelings, but when a horse is breed every bit as much as another, how can you clam different?

 

I'm only trying to prove a point. I love my horses, and as I said before, I don't overly look at pedigree, or bloodlines or papers. I also don't think that ASPC papers give your horse an automatic advantage. There are nice and poor examples of both.

 

And in reflection to MiLo's post, she has a right to have the opinion to be happy for me. She knows I have been looking for a future show horse for many years. That is not saying that she herself would have bought the same horse. I think she would have been just as happy for me if I had bought a 28" falabella appaloosa - a different type of "miniature" that I know MiLo does not breed for.

 

[kaykay]

Oh yes, Lavern, I am glad to see you have come to your senses, dumped the Shetlands, and returned to the STRAIGHT Miniature!

:yeah

Just by virtue of using the word "dumped" it is definitely construed as derogatory tword shetlands. Well actually the whole sentence lets us know how you feel about Shetlands LOL.

Ironic that you pick Lavern (Renee) as her entire program is based off 2 of the most famous Shetland ponies that ever lived (Gold Melody Boy/Buckeroo and Rowdy)

Be careful though as Lavern doesnt like people posting about Shetlands or ASPC on the miniature forum. I never start a post about them on the miniature forum but I do reply to them

My shetland had 3 generations on miniatures on her paperwork; She has 12 AMHR horses listed on her AMHR papers. My AMHA/AMHR miniature Joy also has 3 generations of miniatures on her paperwork too; BUT only has 8 AMHR horses listed on her AMHR papers. I have a tiny, stocky AMHA only horse with even less heritage. I think he has 2 generations and only 4 horses on his papers.
So tell me, which one is "more miniature"?

Excellent point and one I have been saying for years but it falls on deaf ears.

I would really like someone to define "straight miniature". I know thats how Lavern advertises hers but they all go back to famous Shetlands?

So a miniature is only a "straight" miniature if its a Shetland you like?

Anyway its like beating a dead horse for sure.

Bottom line is if you dont like ASPC/AMHR Minaitures dont buy them or breed them. Its so simple to me

 

[Karen S]

Ok,

Tell me how a miniature can be a straight miniature that has "Unknown" in it's background? Unknown what? Morgan, Arab, Harnessbred, Quarter, Welsh, POA, Thoroughbred? If by divine intervention from the great white spirit above, gives me a miniature out of two regular size horses of unknown heritage, I hardship that miniature horse into the AMHR, then does that make it a straight miniature? Please explain that to me.

Karen

 

[Mominis]

Do I realize that there is plenty of Shetland blood in my STRAIGHT Minis? YES.

Okay, right there...that is what I'm not understanding. If a horse is a Shetland, or at least has a good degree of Shetland blood, how does that classify them as a 'straight mini?' This is very confusing to me. Sorry.