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Consistancy of type......

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runamuk

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OK I know better but just cannot control myself it is a sickness
I have been window shopping and have found it interesting that there is such a consistency of type/bloodline............I have discovered that there are a few sire lines that keep showing up in the ponies I like..........I have never found that to be true in miniatures...and it kinda leaves me wondering exactly what happened....I mean if we go with the idea that all mini's are decendants of shetlands then common ancestors SHOULD show through and yet I do not see it (after 10 years of looking for it)...

Anyway here are the bloodlines I think I am attracted to...

Ramble Ridge Rocket

Kewpie Doll's Oracle

Georgetowns Tom Cat

I actually find it interesting after years in Arabians where often the bloodlines were quite consistent and that even in Morgans I can tell you the lines I like and I know very little about that breed.....and again in Saddlebreds.........yet for the last 10 years I have found myself unable to use bloodline information and pedigrees in mini's ......anyway just some more pondering's

And if anyone has any info on the above named horses feel free to share........
 
L

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis

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i dont know much about the pony lines but i do know.. i really like type wise the pony on the back of the new journal

but yes i agree minis seemed ot have lost the "type" casue there were so many different things and types wanted which i guess is good a type for everyone where as the ponies seem to work very hard well there breeders anyway.. on staying with consistent types and consistent improvements if that makes sense
 

lyn_j

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[SIZE=14pt]I think why you find more consistancy in the shetlands is because there arent as many.....there are lots of minis out there being bred....LOTS which makes for a bigger melting pot so some specific lines are lost and several dont breed true to type. Thats another reason I have now some aspc amhr horses that I know throw true to type from different lines than you mention but still the type I like and even in the generations once removed....shetland to mini the strengths are still there and you can still see the same qualities. That second generation then has to be bred to similar horses and if it is another shetland to mini breeding of similar lines then the type stays tight![/SIZE]

Lyn
 

runamuk

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Well maybe......I know if you outcross your lines and do not continue line/in breeding you will lose type/strain consistancy.......maybe that is just it the miniatures have not been as intensely inbred to set type/strain.........

I cannot agree that it is because there are so few shetlands .....arabians are bred in droves and that breed has lots of very consistant lines.............

I don't know how else to explain it.......the Taylor ponies are pretty easy to recognize in general BUT if you really research the program you will discover there are individual strains/types within the entire breeding program......ie his moderns look quite distinct from his aspc/amhr and yet they are both identifiable distinctly as michigan ponies.........Or the Wilks ponies they also are easy to recognize yet there is a definate difference between the classics and the moderns.....

There just do not seem to be any miniature lines that are that set and strong.....again just thinking out loud
 

hhpminis

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Runamuk, I completely agree with you and here is my bit of logic on the idea.

It is much the same as Lisa's.

We must remember that miniatures are a height breed not a blood breed (putting on fire retardant suit now) and therefore a melting pot of all different types of horses. There really has been no line breeding that has been done long enough to impress a certain characteristic into a line. This takes many, many years to stamp out. It takes diligence and strict culling to keep the line pure and only breed the best get back to the best get. Keep adding the main ingredient back in, all the while adding spice with the offspring.

Miniatures are a fairly young breed and have not been around long enough to do this. I also believe (wait I am adding another flame retardant layer) that the miniature horse is very far from perfected and is lacking a lot of ingredients. I feel very strongly that closing the registry whether it be AMHA or AMHR is a huge mistake. I believe that there are some wonderful ingredients yet to be added and we need to keep "Raising the Standard of Perfection" in order to keep interest in the breed.

Oops, did I say all that out loud?
 
L

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis

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hhpminis said:
) that the miniature horse is very far from perfected and is lacking a lot of ingredients. I feel very strongly that closing the registry whether it be AMHA or AMHR is a huge mistake. I believe that there are some wonderful ingredients yet to be added and we need to keep "Raising the Standard of Perfection" in order to keep interest in the breed.
While i of course strongly agree with that statement again doing some thinking out loud i am wondering if AMHR closing is in the long run not a better thing in the sense that.. to get in you need A papers or ASPC and wouldnt the consistency you are speaking of almost to a fanatical level of purity and love for the ASPC breed(not that it is a bad thing
) anyway wouldnt that only improve our mini breed and perhaps a bit faster then if it were an open registry? again i see the plus and minus to both but seeing as it is some consistent lines coming in (in general) without so many inconsistent ones coming in and certainly there being enough to truly cross with care maybe it wont be so bad???
 

hhpminis

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Interesting Lisa and I understand what you are saying and agree to a point.

Although I have chosen to concentrate on the Arenosa line to improve my minis as others have chosen Seth Thomas, and others have chosen the Rowdy lines, etc. etc. Are we in essence saying that no other breed of equine other than shetland has any thing to offer to the breed?

I know breeders that are just touching the tip of the iceberg with outcrosses, there are many small equine breeds with desireable qualities, and I am not just talking shetlands. Look at the advancements that have been made within the appaloosa of the miniature. We are seeing so much more refinement and elegance in them. Is this coming from breeding Falabella horses? No offense, but no.

One of the joys of the miniature breed is all the different types, what is our slogan, "A Horse for Everyone".

I never want to lose the ability to hardship an exceptional animal that falls into the height category. I am however for raising the standard for hardshipping. Or even making it cost more so that only those with exceptional animals will do it. How exactly this would come about I am not sure, as it would have to involve more than just money and a friend. There would have to be a person or committee at HQ that ultimately said yay or nay after the field inspection was done.

I am rambling but like you am thinking out loud. This is how good ideas get made so keep the comments coming.
 

runamuk

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Wow great input.....I agree with much of what has been said.......no flames here I love tossing things around in an open setting.......I think in some ways the breed is just now getting to where the focus can shift from size to type....and I agree there are a few programs that seem to be getting there.......I think the other hurdle as a breed in general is that we have no defined type other than height....so that makes it more difficult......if you look at other breeds even though there are variations within the breed there is an overall look being strived for, and our breed it is height without a distinct description of a specific look.......not sure I am making sense today....
 
L

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis

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Oh no i dont think only shetlands have something to give to our breed at all i was thinking more along the lines of runamuk that with our minis not having a type at all and being a height breed (with some VERY nice minis that have come from some very good programs) i think that in a very general way the not having as much form to function as other breeds tend to -it makes it a bit harder and yes with a new breed like ours it takes many many years and keeps improving i was i guess just going with the well the registry has already been closed(well in 2 months anyway) so might as well look for the postives in it kinda thing


But i do agree that if the choice was soley up to me.. i would have kept it open for a few more years
 
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Lewella

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I think a great deal of the consistancy in today's Shetland can be attributed to the registry being recertified in the late 60's, early 70's. There was so much fraud and indescriminate breeding during the pony boom days that the ASPC called in all papers for recertification and from what I've been told there was a fee to recertify. Because of this, only very dedicated breeders took the step of recertifying their herds and breeders of giveaway ponies (and after the market crashed it was extremely hard to sell even very good ponies - sub-par ponies were literally being given away) didn't. Certainly there were some benificial bloodlines lost but there were more than likly many more unbenificial bloodlines lost. Taylor, Royal, Lee-Land (-Lee, KAL also), Arenosa, Winks, Ramble Ridge, Lou-Ed..........all recertified and are common prefixes/suffixes in today's top winning bloodlines.

When the AMHR started it absorbed many of the bloodlines that were not recertified into the ASPC. This may very well have contributed to the lack of consistancy we see in today's mini.
 

hhpminis

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Lets really think about AMHR closing the registry.

I was at the A convention so missed the R but wasn't this the in a nutshell version of the closing of it.

Any animal with unknown heritage and not from either AMHA or ASPC registry can no longer be hardshipped into AMHR? (pleaase correct me if wrong)

So this means that an animal could still be hardshipped into AMHA and then hardshipped into AMHR?

HHHMMMM, gears are turning here.

What were the "exceptions" placed on closing the registry.

Lisa you are right we do need to look for a positive outcome of decisions already made and out of our control.
 

Lewella

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Hi Annette - the actual closing was done at the Spring Board meeting and I think the minutes are still available on the AMHR site.

Yes, theoretically you can hardship an animal AMHA and then cross register it into AMHR. As near as I can see that's the only "loophole" - doesn't help the B sized animals though. There weren't any exceptions from what the minutes read. At the very least they could have given a three year grace period!
 

runamuk

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Lewella can you elaborate any on the history of the particular horses I mentioned? Or even better direct me to photo's of those horses and their ancestors
 

Lewella

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Kewpie Doll's Oracle was the basis of the Arenosa line. He was sired by Hillswicke Oracle who was also very influential in other breeding programs such as VB (Vern Benna) by way of sons like AAA Blue Chip. Hillswicke Oracle was linebred Silver Crescent and Streamliners Kewpie Doll was Silver Crescent on her dam's side and Plume Knight D (a full brother to Silver Crescent) on her sire's side.

Ramble Ridge Rocket's dam line is line bred Colonel Cody. His sire line........ Well, it has long been suspected his sire wasn't actually the one listed but there has never been proof one way of another. Bruce Becker owned Rocket for most of his life and loves to talk about him so you might give him a call to learn more. Rocket no matter what his breeding really was was a very prepotent producer and put his stamp on his foals. I have a mare bred to his son Rocket's Black Magic for an 05 foal.


Georgetown's Tom Cat is a combo of Curtiss-Frisco Pete and Colonel Cody breeding. And if you want to take it a step further he's also linebred to Frisco Pete's sire X--Dapples (that's pronounced exline) who was line bred King Larigo.

Line breeding has always been common in Shetlands way back to the beginning of the ASPC. Scott Uzzel's book "Our Shetland Heritage" explors the various bloodline families, how they were linebred and then nicked to each other to produce the Shetland of today. Very interesting reading and highly recommended if you can get your hands on a copy!
 

runamuk

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Lewella thank you so much that is a wonderful history lesson for me.........so out of curiosity who is the suspected "other" father on the rocket line
do tell nothing like good ol historical horsey hanky panky
 

Lewella

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Rocket was foaled during a time when having a Hackney stud out behind the barn was more the norm than exception. I've been told the name of the suspected sire by several people, including Rocket's last owner, but Hackney pedigree info is something that for some reason my brain won't retain. I can quote Shetland pedigrees till the cows come home and I'm not half bad with some of the better known mini ones but anything else and I draw a blank!
 

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