Congress - Financial Woes

[Norlea]

The comment has come up that the Congress or for that matter, the AMHR Nationals financial reports are not available to members. YES THEY ARE, all you have to do is ask Joe in accounting for it.... I called Joe just to confirm what I already knew. He stated there are no secrets in his office and your welcome to call and request information from him.. You the member have a right to ask for any information of the registry!!

So with that, please call and get the reports. I am sure you can ask Joe anything you want.... He will answer your questions.

I personally would like a more detailed report with the expenses broke down into more categories. I have heard this complaint before. The Seven-Year Analysis does not tell us where we are spending the money.

I feel we cannot continual to operate the Congress at a loss. This year $29,789.18. IN THE RED.

Over the last seven years $130,000.00 plus has been lost on the Congress.... We need to figure out how to change it..... Obviously we are not sticking to a budget or there is no budget to the Congress?? Please do not tell me we lost it on the stalls, we did not, we made $31,705 on stalls and please do not tell me we picked up an extra day... Base rent flat fee of $25,000 same as last year. Yes, that Facility may have cost more, but we made more is as far stalls.

I see we did the concession stand this year $565.00 in food/refreshments last three years "Zero".

We made $273.00 in shavings, typically a facility with give you a kick back of 50 cent to $1.00 on every bag sold. I asked Cathy in the office what was the count of horses... She stated 515 even though the analysis sheet states 535. Regardless, at 500 horses and a minimum of 2 bags per horse we should have seen $500 to $1000.00 profit on shavings. If you tell me we only got a QUARTER kick back then the budget crew should have passed that QUARTER on to the exhibitors as the goal here is to break-even, not lose $29,000.

All Things Equine – Trophies:

Awards for the Congress - $16,595.25, with ribbons and cooler - total $26,300.80.

Awards for the Mini Nationals - $14,417.16, does not include ribbons or youth trophies. Does this make sense that the Nationals awards are less then the Congress?? The mini Nationals supports ifself, when is the Congress going to do the same?

Bottom line, show expenses increased by $22,000 plus and revenue increased by ony $5,068.45. If you had a show program printed you would see more of an additional losse to the $29,000 as the program book cost $3,365.18 in 2008, but there was no show program because we couldn't afford it in the budget!

The Congress is a heck of a deal with $65.00 stalls, $30 Open, $20 Amateur, $10 Youth class entries fees, $5.00 office fee per horse, etc. for the exhibitor compared to other national level shows, with the awards & ribbon budget way over the top!!!! I am not for increasing costs to the exhibitor as you will never make up the difference of $29,00 plus for the Congress by increasing the fees but we do need be realistic about the fees. With the amount of money that is spent on awards and ribbons, we need to have a reality check that we have CHAMPAGNE taste with BEET BUDGET revenue for this show.

The question we should ask, how are we covering these losses?? That is the question, exactly how have we covered a deficit of $130,000.00 on Congress these past years?? Something has got to change to achieve a break-even event!!!!

I know of no institution out there that would continual to give its blessings to losses like this?

 

[Lilac Lane Farm]

 

[Magic]

,All Things Equine – Trophies:Awards for the Congress - $16,595.25, with ribbons and cooler - total $26,300.80.

Awards for the Mini Nationals - $14,417.16, does not include ribbons or youth trophies. Does this make sense that the Nationals awards are less then the Congress?? The mini Nationals supports ifself, when is the Congress going to do the same?

The question we should ask, how are we covering these losses?? That is the question, exactly how have we covered a deficit of $130,000.00 on Congress these past years?? Something has got to change to achieve a break-even event!!!!

I know of no institution out there that would continual to give its blessings to losses like this?

No, it doesn't make sense that the awards for Congress cost so much more than the awards for Miniature Nationals, especially when Nationals has, what, THREE TIMES the number of equines entered? But the majority of the people running the AMHR are "pony people" and the ponies are the most important feature to them, and the miniatures are just a way to help finance them. Flame me if you must, but it's true.

 

[kaykay]

Awards for the Congress - $16,595.25, with ribbons and cooler - total $26,300.80.Awards for the Mini Nationals - $14,417.16, does not include ribbons or youth trophies

How can you compare these two figures when one shows a total and the other does not?? To really compare you would have to know the total for Nationals INCLUDING ribbons and youth trophies

Reasons Congress Doesnt Make Money

Very little promotion

Paying for horseshowonline instead of using the horsestudbook.com

Moving the location (Congress has no "home" so people cannot plan ahead to attend)

Poor negotiating for facilities

I have been given so many different numbers on the horses that attended. I was told at Congress it was 535. But several directors have said it was much lower. Seems odd that we cannot get a firm number of horses that attended

Please lets not do the "pony people vs mini people thing" It really doesnt help anything. Most of the people I know are like myself and own both Miniatures and Shetlands. Its not us against them. Its us

 

[Minimor]

So, what was the amount for the ribbons and youth trophies for AMHR Nationals, and who paid for those?

 

[SweetOpal]

I would have to say that the totals have got to be incorrect on the awards, as we don't even get a reserve award like nationals, so that would be double the awards for nationals verses congress. We only get a horse head for the champion in each class, second place gets a ribbon a red one just like all the other ribbons in the show. I also remember that the coolers were donated by Raydon from what I heard anyways.

Also it appears to me that the fees we have been paying for these facilities are ridiculous. I am hoping that with our great deal in Oklahoma we will make a profit.

I would think that before we begin to think about tossing in the towel on our Congress that we should consider the amount of money spent on the show program, that does not seem to work for all. I think we could afford the loss of 4 congress's verses one year of the horsestudbook.com. Also I think a change in venue that is much more reasonable and perhaps a budget that is stuck too.

I too like Kay am not sure where this 535 horses thing is coming in as I remember specifically asking the stewards how many horses were measure and remember it being something along the lines 519, however the mentioned that there were several of those horses that got measured for both aspc and aspr, so that would likely be less than 500 horses.

I am a pony only exhibitor and I do see a problem with this, this is an issue, a big one, however we need to know if this is show management or office problems that are causing the inconsistancies of the financial report.

 

[Norlea]

So, what was the amount for the ribbons and youth trophies for AMHR Nationals, and who paid for those?

We do not have the figures for the ribbons for Nationals

I was only comparing the trophy awards for both show and then added the ribbons/coolers for the Congress. it is stated the ribbons for nationals was not included yet....

The national show pays for itself as the revenue for that show does not exceed the expenses. The miniature members support that show, it pays for itself.

 

[Norlea]

Please understand I am not stating to toss in the towel for Congress, I did not say that, I did say I know of no institution that would give its blessing to these kind of losses on an event over a seven year run..

What I think the registry should do is look at the problems of why we are losing money and make adjustments. Spending on any event should be relevant to the revenue, I am not so concerned about making profit, just break-even. Is that too much to ask?

It was suggested that I post the Seven Year Anlysis, I didn't because the max upload was more the 46K. But as Belinda stated on the other thread, anyone could call the office and ask for it..... We as directors want to give you straight answers. So ask away.... that is your right as a member...

If I can get someone who is better at this then I am to shrink the statment and send it to this board, then I will email it to them. Joe did state to me he does give this statement out at the convention. I know it is included the handouts when he goes over the finances in the general membership meeting....

Thanks,

Lea

 

[ruffian]

Not to upset anybody, but the miniature horse is carrying the pony. End of story.

Every show in Michigan had dismal pony turn out this year. The Ionia show had 1 - count IT 1 pony. Probably close to 80 minis.

Midland may have had a few more, but certainly not the numbers that the miniatures have. But we have to have the ribbons for the the pony classes. This is not a new occurrence. There have been very few ponies showing in the last 5-10 years. At no show did I ever see the ponies outnumber the miniatures.

The ponies are just not supporting themselves. I don't know the reason.

I don't have ponies. I do not feel I want to handle a good show pony. I don't want to invest in the time and effort, shoeing, equipment etc for a pony. I've had miniatures for over 20 years but still don't want to tackle a good hot show pony. So I don't. I take typically 4-6 miniatures to a show and have a great time.

In My Opinion the show pony isn't a back yard equine the way a miniature horse can be. I am NOT flaming the pony. I am stating what IMO is true. There are some fantastic children's ponies out there. But they are few and far between. A good show pony takes an experienced handler and trainer to show.

I'm probably not saying this right - I am not against ponies. I am saying that the average joe or jane with their kids can typically take a miniature, or 2 or 5, and even with limited horse experience enjoy owning and showing a miniature. This is not necessarily true with a show pony.

If the Congress or Pony World is not supporting itself it needs to be scaled back. But this has been an on-going issue for years, so I doubt it will be solved soon.

 

[Belinda]

I see we did the concession stand this year $565.00 in food/refreshments last three years "Zero".

To first address this one !! Yes there is a cost there, but then if you look down under operating expense under Meals & refreshments we had charges there every year until 2009 !!!!! so guess you might say they did not buy snacks and sent them to the snack bar !!

Next it does cost when you add another day !! One more day of judges expenses one more day of Hotel , 2 more Judges for Futurity more hotel more airfare , more meals !!

Oh wait then we added Classes , we added a Under divison to the Modern Pleasure Halter and then over & under in the Driving, Then in Classic's we split the Amateur into Over & under , and Oh wait then we split the Classic Country Pleasure driving into over and under , and if I am not mistaken we added more ASPR classes. !!!!

Everything I have mentioned DOES ADD EXPENSE TO A SHOW..!! Granted one thing you got right we sure don't charge much to enter this show , and a $5.00 office fee is less than I pay on the local level.. I have looked at prices for other National shows and we are way under , I mean way under !!!

Believe me I am not saying that we should ignore this by any means , but I think if we are going to start painting gloom & doom pictures , you should put ALL THE FACT OF THE SHOW NOT JUST PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH ONES TO PUT OUT THERE.. We all have known that Congress has been loosing money , thus was the reason we work our tails off to find a location for a better price... Heck don't cook the goose before we have had time to try make this at least a break even deal..

 

[ruffian]

Not to upset anybody, but the miniature horse is carrying the pony. End of story.

Every show in Michigan had dismal pony turn out this year. The Ionia show had 1 - count IT 1 pony. Probably close to 80 minis.

Midland may have had a few more, but certainly not the numbers that the miniatures have. But we have to have the ribbons for the the pony classes. This is not a new occurrence. There have been very few ponies showing in the last 5-10 years. At no show did I ever see the ponies outnumber the miniatures.

The ponies are just not supporting themselves. I don't know the reason.

I don't have ponies. I do not feel I want to handle a good show pony. I don't want to invest in the time and effort, shoeing, equipment etc for a pony. I've had miniatures for over 20 years but still don't want to tackle a good hot show pony. So I don't. I take typically 4-6 miniatures to a show and have a great time.

In My Opinion the show pony isn't a back yard equine the way a miniature horse can be. I am NOT flaming the pony. I am stating what IMO is true. There are some fantastic children's ponies out there. But they are few and far between. A good show pony takes an experienced handler and trainer to show.

I'm probably not saying this right - I am not against ponies. I am saying that the average joe or jane with their kids can typically take a miniature, or 2 or 5, and even with limited horse experience enjoy owning and showing a miniature. This is not necessarily true with a show pony.

If the Congress or Pony World is not supporting itself it needs to be scaled back. But this has been an on-going issue for years, so I doubt it will be solved soon.

 

[Frankie]

As someone who has just made the move to ponies, on a small scale, I certainly do not like those figures. I want to show and it would be nice for the shows to be there. I will be supporting my local shows, we all need to do that.

Instead of b#tch*ng about it, I plan to get a hold of my board, not to complain, but to ask, how can I help?

I understand all the concern that has been voiced here.

If we want to see a turn around, we need to be a part of the solution.

Belinda, what can I and others do to help?

 

[Jill]

(in the hopes of some smiles or a laugh)...

These days on any forum other than a horse related one, that topic title would be the start of a hot political thread!!!

 

[osu_barrelracer]

No matter what the circumstances or issues, that large of a loss deffinitely needs to be addressed, and changes made. It will be interesting to see how it goes next year with the move to Ardmore. Either way, I know we will be there

 

[Sue_C.]

These days on any forum other than a horse related one, that topic title would be the start of a hot political thread!!!

Which, BTW, are not allowed here...so let's not even go there.

 

[~Lisa~]

Awards for the Congress - $16,595.25, with ribbons and cooler - total $26,300.80.Awards for the Mini Nationals - $14,417.16, does not include ribbons or youth trophies

How can you compare these two figures when one shows a total and the other does not?? To really compare you would have to know the total for Nationals INCLUDING ribbons and youth trophies

Reasons Congress Doesnt Make Money

Very little promotion

Paying for horseshowonline instead of using the horsestudbook.com

Moving the location (Congress has no "home" so people cannot plan ahead to attend)

Poor negotiating for facilities

I have been given so many different numbers on the horses that attended. I was told at Congress it was 535. But several directors have said it was much lower. Seems odd that we cannot get a firm number of horses that attended

I agree that while not comparable the $ amount for awards seems crazy for congress since they have so many fewer classes and horses per class compared to Nationals but would have to see a further break down

The numbers would be different in part based on the ASPR ponies- ponies could be counted twice as both Moderns and ASPR when in actuality it is the same pony.

As far as using horseshowsonline well fact is in the opinion of everyone I have talked to anyway it is simply a better program all the way around at least for those viewing and I am guessing from those using it.

I am glad to hear as a side note we finally quit paying such a well lets call it goofy amount of money monthly for our computer program... just a few months of that program could fund a heck of a lot of shows... but that is another fish to fry lol

I do not think Congress needs to end that is not a realistic suggestion. We all know that yes the minis are funding the registry plain and simple no one is disputing that.

I am not sure what the answer is and perhaps as Belinda said it is lets wait and see what happens in 2010 lets wait and see if this location -this facility - our show program somehow becoming user friendly for those looking for immeadiate updates (like any National show should have) and for those doing the office work.. perhaps when all those things combine together it will end up in a very financially successful Congress I think there can be no answers until then although I do hope a further breakdown will be available at Convetion of expenses.

 

[Lewella]

Every show in Michigan had dismal pony turn out this year. The Ionia show had 1 - count IT 1 pony. Probably close to 80 minis.Midland may have had a few more, but certainly not the numbers that the miniatures have. But we have to have the ribbons for the the pony classes. This is not a new occurrence. There have been very few ponies showing in the last 5-10 years. At no show did I ever see the ponies outnumber the miniatures.

The reason pony numbers are lower than mini numbers at shows is really quite simple - population. There are over two times as many AMHR weanling stallions registered per year as there are total ASPC new registrations for all ages, all genders per year.

Fiscal Year 2008:

Total Shetland new registrations 1195

Total AMHR new registrations 8676 (2748 weanling stallions)

When you think about it, it is really amazing the number of Shetlands that show! I doubt there is another registery in the country that can boast national show attendance so close to 50% of their total animals registered that year!

 

[~Lisa~]

The reason pony numbers are lower than mini numbers at shows is really quite simple - population. There are over two times as many AMHR weanling stallions registered per year as there are total ASPC new registrations for all ages, all genders per year.
Fiscal Year 2008:

Total Shetland new registrations 1195

Total AMHR new registrations 8676 (2748 weanling stallions)

When you think about it, it is really amazing the number of Shetlands that show! I doubt there is another registery in the country that can boast national show attendance so close to 50% of their total animals registered that year!

Hmmmm interesting point Lewella- I do look forward to this discussion at Nationals and hope there can be some ways to save money and in turn save the show

 

[Yaddax3]

Just a thought ...

Why not consider moving AMHR Nationals into August -- before kids, who are supposed to be important to the registry, start school -- and moving Shetland Congress later in August ...

And hold them at the same facility and at the same time over three weekends? If classes are started on the first Saturday, there would be enough time to hold all the classes for AMHR Nationals and Shetland Congress over the ensuing 15 days.

Area Nationals combine minis and Shetlands so, in the interest of saving money and maybe attracting more exhibitors and horses, why not hold AMHR Nationals and Shetland Congress concurrently?

As an exhibitor who shows at Shetland Congress and AMHR Nationals, I'd much prefer this to having to take off from work a week in August and two weeks in September.

I'm guessing there are plenty of reasons to object to this thought. But the financial losses incurred by Shetland Congress suggest something different needs to be done.

 

[Norlea]

I am not trying to misrepresent anything here on the Congress. I am not picking and choosing Belinda?

Bottom line is we lost $29,789.18 this year. We lost $12,455.55. last year, before that we lost 25,728, year before that, $26, 990. on and on... So what justifies adding days and judges, splitting classes? We need to tighten the budget and maybe give up a little to make it break even, not add to it.....

Belinda, your right on the meals and expenses, I did miss that on the expense page....

I am more then willing to send the Analysis sheet out to someone who can post it, as I can't get it to upload because of the max on the size... Everyone is entitled to it .. Belinda you have it, can you post it on the boards? As far being accused of picking and choosing to make the Congress appear to be doomed before we get to Ardmore, I would like to give you my Analysis for year 2010. You can all decide for yourself.

As far as a break even deal at the new location. I can tell you the details of the terms as Belinda and I sat down with the facilitator Tim Lynch and negotiated the terms. We will end up with covering the facility costs with renting out 400 stalls.... In fact we will come out ahead -- $2,160.00. Then with the additional sale of stalls – figured on 160 -- We will make an additional $6,560.00 for a total in the black of $8,720.00 with the facility paid for. Also this includes making a bit on the on the shavings based on the sale of 1000 bags (this was figured by averaging 2 bags to a stall - 500 pony stalls sold, also a $2,000 grant given by the City of Ardmore. The price of the facility also includes AC in the huge Coliseum. Remember even if we do not sell the extra 160 stalls -- we still have the facility paid for with 400 stalls. With that said... Yes, this portion of the expense (Facility, Stalls) -- we will see a plus sign..

But now we have to bring in the revenue of entries, vendors and sponsorships in order to offset the operating costs of the show. If they remain about the same as this year, the operating cost was $74,818. This did not include the program book this year, last year the program cost was $3,365.18. So with the current budget of this year for operating cost including the program book -- we could be looking at $78,000 operating cost.

(Operating costs are items such as: Stewards, judges, trophies, ribbons, management fees, show support personal, misc. expenses, printing programs show personal, accommodations, Ins).

Congress this year made $175.00 on hook-ups. Congress Sponsorship $455.75, Vendors $200 and Sponsor tables brought in $273.00. Entry fees netted $39,156.25, The total revenue of $48,915.00 on the above mentioned items.

Remember this does not include the stalls and shavings from this years Congress as I broke that out above. We will be cover the costs of the facility, with a guarantee of profit $2,160.00 based on 400 stalls rented and profit of $6,560.00 based on the rental of an additional 160 stalls. In actuality, the Stall income at the Congress this year paid for the facility, which it should! The Cloverdale facility costs of shaving , stalls, concession, hook-up, ring side tables were $49,024.00, we netted $49,387 on stalls and shavings.

I am showing you the $48,915.00 entry, vendor & sponsorship revenue to realize that the operating costs of $78,00 far exceed the $48,915.00 revenue we currently took in for the Congress 2009. Even after the facility is paid for we will not come out ahead with the existing operating costs. You would have to Double the Entry Income to cover the operating expenses of this show.

So if we do not scale down the operating expenses of this show, it will operate at a deficit no matter where you locate it or how much you promote it!!

Do not mean to start a war or mislead anyone, this is how I see it from this Analysis sheet on the Congress.

I see we did the concession stand this year $565.00 in food/refreshments last three years "Zero".

To first address this one !! Yes there is a cost there, but then if you look down under operating expense under Meals & refreshments we had charges there every year until 2009 !!!!! so guess you might say they did not buy snacks and sent them to the snack bar !!

Next it does cost when you add another day !! One more day of judges expenses one more day of Hotel , 2 more Judges for Futurity more hotel more airfare , more meals !!

Oh wait then we added Classes , we added a Under divison to the Modern Pleasure Halter and then over & under in the Driving, Then in Classic's we split the Amateur into Over & under , and Oh wait then we split the Classic Country Pleasure driving into over and under , and if I am not mistaken we added more ASPR classes. !!!!

Everything I have mentioned DOES ADD EXPENSE TO A SHOW..!! Granted one thing you got right we sure don't charge much to enter this show , and a $5.00 office fee is less than I pay on the local level.. I have looked at prices for other National shows and we are way under , I mean way under !!!

Believe me I am not saying that we should ignore this by any means , but I think if we are going to start painting gloom & doom pictures , you should put ALL THE FACT OF THE SHOW NOT JUST PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH ONES TO PUT OUT THERE.. We all have known that Congress has been loosing money , thus was the reason we work our tails off to find a location for a better price... Heck don't cook the goose before we have had time to try make this at least a break even deal..