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Enchantress

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a silver dapple to a buckskin? Buckskin stallions sire is buckskin dam is cremello. Not sure on the mare, but the owner was wondering what she might get for a colour on foal. Mare is a darker colour, almost a chocolate dappled. Any ideas? I can try to get pics of the mare if it would help. Thanks!
 

Sue_C.

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To simplify things...get the silver out of the way for a moment. Silver is a black-based colour, so think black.

Black (Bl) to Buckskin (Bu) --

S/Ba/Bl/Br/Bu/P/Cr

Then, just add silver to any of the above, and that is what it "could" be.

Aso to add...is the mare TRUELY a silver, or is she possible a smokey black? I have mistaken some of the lighter coloured smokey blacks for chocolate silvers before, so it isn't difficult to do.
It would be nice to know the colours of the mares parents.
 
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Enchantress

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So what does all that mean in english?


Is there a visual way to distinguish a smokey black from a silver dapple for certain or does it take testing.

I don't have a copy of the mare's pedigree with me, but would her sire's and dam's colour be listed if someone could look up her name?
 

Sue_C.

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Black (Bl) to Buckskin (Bu) --
S/Ba/Bl/Br/Bu/P/Cr
S = Sorrel/chestnut

Ba = Bay

Bl = Black

Br = Brown

Bu = Buckskin

P = Palomino

Cr = Creamello

You would have the chance of a smokey black too, as the buckskin could pass the cream gene to a black foal.


Is there a visual way to distinguish a smokey black from a silver dapple for certain or does it take testing. I don't have a copy of the mare's pedigree with me, but would her sire's and dam's colour be listed if someone could look up her name?
There is a test to determine whether a horse carries the cream gene, yes. Most silver dapples, have a lighter mane and tail from the body colour, but many of the chocolates, or "livers" don't, and they are the ones that can be mistaken for the lighter smokey blacks. ( or visa-versa)

Yes, if a look-up is done on the mare's pedigree, the colours will be listed as well.
 

Enchantress

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Ahh...it was the "S" that got me! Wasn't even thinking "sorrel" DUH!

So basically it could be just about any colour?

Here is a picture of the mare:

 

Sue_C.

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No doubt about it...she is the classic silver dapple. Sorry, I got confused when you mentioned she was chocolate/brownish. I was "seeing" a liver cloured horse...almost what they sometimes call a "black chestnut". My oh my...this colour thing is crazy huh?
 

CharmedMinis

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Well I have a yearling colt who is out of a Buckskin Stallion who was out of a buckskin by a bay. The yearling colt's Dam is a silver dapple, not sure on parents.

Yearling colt is a sooty buckskin. Could possibly be silver buckskin but not sure but his legs are pretty light.

I have to upload new yearling pics of him because he looks completely different than he did last year, but..........

Here is a pic of him as a baby



Here is his Sire



Here is his Dam, she is actually heavy in foal with the colt in this picture.



And just so you can tell the difference.........the above mare is a silver dapple. The below two horses are genetically DNA tested Smokey Blacks.



 

Enchantress

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I've pretty much given up on colour predictions....just when you think you have it...in pops another variable! We're both really hoping for a buckskin, so I guess we'll have to see!

So a smokey black looks in some ways like a "faded" black but with distinguishable black legs and slightly lighter brownish body with a darker mane than a silver but still noticeably lighter than a black? Or something like that?

Thanks for the pics!
 

rabbitsfizz

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Sorry, it's not even that simple- a smoky Black can be indistinguishable from a straight Black!! AND are you sure the Cremello IS Cremello and not Perlino as this would change the colour possibilities!!!
 

Enchantress

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OK...STOP..I give up *waving a white flag* I guess I'll just have to see what we get lol

As far as my stallions dam being a cremello..She's registered that way, but I don't think I've ever seen a picture of her
 

~Palomino~

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Enchantress said:
OK...STOP..I give up *waving a white flag*  I guess I'll just have to see what we get lolAs far as my stallions dam being a cremello..She's registered that way, but I don't think I've ever seen a picture of her 


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It dosent matter what that sires (of the unborn foal) Parents are, as long as one had the agouti, and one had the cream gene, he can be a buckskin(wich is usually easy to tell)

-Gage-
 

Enchantress

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Ok another question...is there a dominant colour gene? Like a red based horse will always produce one or a black based horse will always produce one..etc. Or does it basically just rely on the gene combination of each horse you breed?

I tried studying some colour genetics back in high school because it fascinates me, but my ebay special book was from the 60's..and I'm SURE we've had quite a few "discoveries/breakthroughs" since then. Any books anyone would care to recommend about the subject?

This mare bred to a black stallion last year had a black colt, so we're both hoping maybe bred to a buckskin she'll have a buckskin (filly!)


It's probably wishful thinking...maybe we should be hoping for a chestnut colt or something because it seems I for one always get not what I'm "hoping" for.

Also, if a homozygous for black points solid bay mare was bred to a chestnut stallion with lots of leg and face white, there's no way the resulting colt would be homozygous for black, right? And if that colt were bred, theoretically there's a 50/50 chance of having a black based baby? And is there any way to determine colour patterns of white markings? Any of you teach a course on horses and colour genetics? LOL
 

rabbitsfizz

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No, no real dominant. Some colours are simple Dominants, in that they need to be there in a parent in order to express, and some colours and patterns can be Homozygous, in that the pattern will always express. ie H/Z Tobiano will always produce a Tobiano, but the pattern may be so minimal it would take a magnifying glass to find it!!!
Also a H/Z Black will always throw a Black based horse BUT if there is Agouti hiding in the sorrel mare- you can get a Bay, if the mare is Palomino, again hiding Agouti, you can get a Buckskin (Cream + Agouti+ Black) All the Homozygosity guarantees is a black based horse which is why it is important to know the real colours of the ancestors, not just the ones shoved down on the papers. The only real, hard and fast rule is Sorrel X Sorrel always= Sorrel, after that I'm afraid the only set in stone rule is that there are NO set in stone rules!!!! You can guess more accurately if you know the colours that you are dealing with are 100% accurate- I have bred my own horses for five generations so I know the colours are accurate??? WRONG I mis- identified a mare as Palomino for EIGHT years of her life!!! I bred her, I was there when she was born!!! She is a Dunalino, genetically. She looks like a Palomino, you need a good day, a clean horse and a magnifying glass to find the dorsal stripe- BUT she threw a Red Dun to a non- Dun factor Stallion- so, she has to be a Dunalino!! Colour is SUCH good fun
 

Robin1

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After a few years of foals, I don't try to guess anymore.
Just think of it as opening a Christmas present.


The only thing I wish for is a healthy, happy foal.


Robin
 

Enchantress

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Opening a Christmas present, eh? Hmm, well since I buy my own Christmas presents it's never really a surprise! At this point I'm just hoping for ANY healthy foal. Last baby we had here (Morgan) was born in 2001 and I bred back 2 Morgans in 2001, 2002 and 2003 finally gave up, and bred a mini mare in 2004 and still no babies. Maybe I'm just cursed! I really want a nice little buckskin (pinto?) filly for myself for next year. Can't stand waiting for those pregnancy tests to see if there's even a CHANCE! Yes, I KNOW I'd be better off just buying what I want, but that takes all the fun out of trying to creat the "perfect" baby!
 

Tabitha

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I'm still waiting to hear Sue C. explain how anyone would get a cremello foal by crossing a silver dapple on a buckskin? Not possible, unless by chance the silver dapple is hiding a dilution gene--may be possible but the original post doesn't indicate that. That color possibility needs a qualifier attached to it when listing it in this case.
 

Sue_C.

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I'm still waiting to hear Sue C. explain how anyone would get a cremello foal by crossing a silver dapple on a buckskin?
Well, I did say that silver, is a black based colour, and also mentioned, is that we would have to know the colours of ALL the parents. The original question was "what colours can you get"...not HOW each one is produced. We did discuss smokey blacks, and there is the possiblity (if we knew the parents colours, we'd have a better idea) that the mare could be a silver smokey black.

Not possible, unless by chance the silver dapple is hiding a dilution gene--may be possible but the original post doesn't indicate that. That color possibility needs a qualifier attached to it when listing it in this case.
As far as that goes, the original post said that the dam's papents colours were unknown to the owner at that time. So we could assume anything, as far as their colour goes. All possibilities are allowed for. I never discount the unknown; as that is usually what turns 'round and bites ya in the butt.

On my listing of possible colours that I use, was the "Cr", so that is what I added. It wasn't a test,
so I guess I just didn't study hard enough.
 

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