Color genetics

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Lakota_Elder

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Being new to mini's, and the diverse colors that they carry, I would like to know what genetic match is required to produce the darkest chocolate color with the white mane and tail. I know they call it a silver bay but there is a wide range of silver bay coloring. Does the horse require 1 or 2 genetic matches for silver. Will it be lighter if a creme gene is also passed on. Does it matter if either of the parents being bred is a black, smokey black or creme black. Are there any horse studies doing testing on color genetics where I could get information. Inquiring mind wants to know... Thanks
 
If I remember correctly only one copy of the silver gene is required to produce the trait as it is dominant. I think the silver gene affects black horses more so than red (been a long time since I've looked at it) if you breed silver to black it should result in a silver dapple. The darker the solid horse the better if you want deep color. Animal genetics inc. Has tests for the silver gene for minis. Www.horsetesting.com is the site I think.
 
There is a lot of information on the genetics of equine coat color on the internet but I think there is still a lot that is not known. For example, blue eyes are usually thought to be caused by the splash gene and there is now a test for 3 types of "splash" but many of us had blue eyed horses come back negative for all 3 of those types. Animal Genetics is a good place to start and they have a neat coat color calculator that gives the chances of getting each possible color. But that is only as good as the information you put in, and I HAVE seen it come back with incorrect possibilities.

In terms of the color you want, I think you want a silver black, not silver bay. Silver bay actually looks a lot like a bay except for the "points" that on a bay are black and on a silver bay are light. Our silver bay pintos with while legs have looked more like chestnut. (LOL, except the ones that turned gray, and they did that at very different rates). Our silver black mare is different shades depending on the time of the year, or ????? Not really sure what it depends on, but the color changes. Only one copy of the silver gene is required, along with the black base color (EE or Ee) but the color "may" be different if the horse has 2 copies of one or both (not sure of this). Silver "hides" on red based horses so you don't necessarily need a black based horse to contribute it. On chestnuts, palominos, etc, you would need to test to see if they carried silver, which would only be possible on one of their parents did. And of course, your best bet to get a silver black would be to breed 2 horses that were homozygous for both EE (black) and silver! Oh, and if a parent carries a cream gene then they could always pass that on to the foal and complicate the possibilities and/or create a lighter color or some other color entirely! My suggestion: Find a horse with the color you want and buy it.
 
You need only one copy of silver and one copy of black to get a silver black, or add one copy I'd agouti to get silver bay but...breeding silver to black will not necessarily give you a silver black. I have bred silver black to silver black and got plain black....and black to silver black has given me black, chestnut--no silver black. I have a silver bay from silver black x chestnut (chestnut carried agouti)
 
If you want the smooth "chocolate" colour your best bet is a Silver Brown.
 
Thanks for all the information..... It looks like a crap shoot. EE to 1 Z in both parents, no cream and pray. But even if I bought just what I wanted (but it's not yet to be found) I'd still have to match it for breeding. I've found one female who has both the conformation and the color and is of course, not for sale. The quest continues. Anyone know of a silver black with white mane and tail, snowcap appaloosa with excellent conformation and kids pet disposition.... Yeah I do ask for a lot ....and I don't even have young kids anymore......
 
Not a crap shoot - just time, perseverance and money.

I was totally surprised when a mare that I had tested turned out to be a silver black and not a silver bay as I had suspected. Her "baby mane" was as close to white as I've gotten. As she's matured, her mane & tail have steadily gotten darker - with flax. Tested - Ee, aa, nZ. The two pictures below are the SAME MARE. The baby shot was taken the day after she arrived at our farm and had a bath in September 2009. The 2nd one she is now "4" (she'll be four the end of May). She has lived out her entire life - has free choice coastal hay here in NC (as a foal in IA she was on pasture w/ her dam). As a weanling & yearling, she did get some alfalfa - but not free choice.

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Our current stallion, Iggy, is EE, aa, nZ, TT. He is in my avatar - pictured when he was a 2 yr old in the mid-west showing towards his HOF in Halter.

Crossed on the mare - Koalah - EE, aa, tT, nZ, Sabino – nn. Here are their 3 fillies so far -

Flashi - 2011 model. Her tail is not this light here at home. Not sure what the trainer used in her feed or to wash her with (or is her tail "dyed"?). I do know that she was inside except to be worked. She hasn't been color tested yet - but she will of course be EE, aa, ?Z, ?T. Her foal coat was a light "tan"...
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Was totally blown away when I arrived in TX in October to see her this shade!! She was still in her foal/early yearling coat that was tan when I dropped her off in April of her yearling year.

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and these two are Shamrock (March 2012) and Bunny (April 2013). They have not been color tested yet either but will read basically the same - EE, aa, ?Z, ?T. However, I think Bunny will be ZZ or homozygous silver... because she is so light. I will go ahead and test her for cream. I didn't have her dam tested for cream because she doesn't "appear" to have cream. However, looking back thru her pedigree, she could have it hidden as "smokey black" in a couple of places (Koalah's pedigree)...

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I have found that diet, sweat and sun all play a part in the shade of a horses coat - regardless of their base colors. Even a palomino will "fade" when sweating and then bleached by the sun. My homozygous blacks also faded in the sun here in NC...

There is a breeder of Minis in CA that has silver dapple appaloosas... BEAUTIFUL horses! If I find a silver dapple appy mini at a time when I can afford to purchase one - it will come home with me. Preferably a matched pair for driving. Sex won't matter, tho i prefer mares.
 
Then there is Iggy to this mare - Stuffy - EE, aa, nZ, tT. Their foals will also be EE, aa, ?Z, ?T. Stuffy as a 2 yr old cleaned up to be shown, and then as a mature mare. Note that I think her white tail is because it's truly white from her white pinto butt marking, with a tiny bit of mixed flax. Her mane I think is mostly flax with a tiny bit of white where her white marking touches her neck on both sides. She lives out 24/7 - no barn or real shelter - just trees or hay bales...

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Their first two foals were similar in foal coats - kind of a light tan. But the 3rd foal, a colt that I believe will match the 1st colt for driving, is much darker with his foal and resulting winter coat (none of my foals shed out this year before it turned cold, nor were they clipped at all).

This is Cupid as a foal and as a 3 yr old in 2013. Hmmm, his foal coat isn't as lite as I was thinking it was from my pics (!!). He was tested - EE, aa, nZ, TT. Born in Feb 2010. Gelded in 2012.

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I have no doubt that if I kept Cupid up in a barn stall and washed his mane and tail with a color enhancing shampoo and did certain vitamins/minerals or supplements that he'd appear to be "black" or deep "chocolate" with a much lighter mane and tail - though not truly white. His dam Stuffy is mini sized and so far, he is staying mini sized as well. He and Stuffy both could be hardshipped into the AMHR. They are both registered Shetlands. I'm not sure that Iggy would measure into AMHR...

This is Wyndy - the day she was born (more pics in another post). February 2012. She hasn't been tested yet for actual color genetics.

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Partial body clip in May 2012.

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Sadly, I didn't get any pics of her with a full body clip! This is Wyndy at a full year of age in Feb 2012.

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And in July of 2013 - not body clipped but shed out.

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And the 3rd foal from this cross - Rio. He was born in April 2013.

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4 months of age - LOVE those "white" silver dapple eyelashes!!

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and in December 2013. Rio and Bunny are both 8 months old. Bell is also a silver mare (homozygous).

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Rio is built more like his brother, Cupid. I believe that unless he suddenly "sprouts" that he and Cupid will make an awesome driving pair and can hardly wait until Rio is old enuff to drive!!
 
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Well it looks like you have a handle on the combination for the colors you want. How does the tT affect the colors. Have you color tested Stuffy and Shamrock. And still, even with the genetic match, the colors vary during the year and as they age. That why I love the minis, you can get a new horse every spring when they shed. I got the same thing with the big appys but not as much variations in color. I so love this site.!!!
 
Sooo - then I have the silver mare - Bell. She has tested - Ee, aa, ZZ.

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She has produced two silver tobiano fillies for us. One she was pregnant with when we purchased her and the sire is a chestnut tobiano stallion. So the genetics look like this on the filly - GG - Ee, aa, nT, nZ. GG got her black color from her dam as her sire would have been ee (chestnut). Bell isn't bay and the sire wasn't "hiding" bay agouti (aa). She got her tobiano gene from her sire and her silver gene from her dam.

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GG and her dam - March 2013. Still in winter coats. GG sheds out a lot darker than her dam.

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and Bell's 2012 filly by Iggy. Classy hasn't been tested yet - so currently looks like this - E?, aa, ?Z, tT.

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and in 2013 @ 13 months of age -

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In the next few years, I will be adding some "new" colors to the mix. Our two jr stallions are heterozygous black (both out of chestnut tobiano mares), bay, tobiano s. Then another stallion that I'm bringing along that is the son of our very first stallion is also heterozygous black (out of a chestnut tobiano mare). None has actually been tested yet to see if they are homozygous tobiano. I'm hoping that they all are, but ??? And in 5 - 10 years, I will be looking for another silver stallion to bring in to cross on the resulting daughters of these stallions (with the disposition, personality and conformation that I want, too).

Silver genetics are great fun!!
 
Stuffy has been tested. She's EE, aa, nZ, tT. She will always pass a black gene to her foals EVEN if bred to a chestnut stallion. NONE of her foals will ever be "red". She can't pass a bay gene, however, the foal COULD get a bay gene from a stallion if he carries 1 or 2 A genes. She won't always pass her Tobiano or her silver gene - her first foal was a solid silver black colt by a dark bay stallion (even though not tested, I'd say the stallion was aA for bay. He had other black foals as well)... Since she only carries one tobiano and one silver gene - she could produce a non silver or non tobiano foal (her first colt wasn't pinto).

Shamrock hasn't been tested yet. Due to her sire being EE, aa, nZ , tT and her dam also being EE, aa, nZ, tT - she will be EE, aa, ?T, ?Z.

Tobiano (tT or TT) doesn't affect the color as it's a pinto pattern. A horse is either tt (not tobiano), tT (tobiano - 50% pinto producer) or TT (tobiano - 100 % pinto producer). The T doesn't tell you how much white your foal will have. Several have told me that some of mine carry other patterns as well - but after testing for several of those patterns as the tests have come out and having them all negative, I'm no longer "wasting" my $$ that way. I will test for the base, silver colors and Tobiano pattern only... I have quite a few to complete testing on again - youngstock that I've bred and mares that I've purchased.

Several of our ponies also carry a type of roan pattern (incomplete) which seems to be "popular" in the Shetlands and Minis. YES, I love all the color combinations as well. I really LOVE my silvers
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and all the different colors I get.

My neighbors call them the ugly "tan" ponies
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And my family, the 3 daughters that are no longer living here and don't handle the ponies much, can't tell them apart unless they have their names on their collars!

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One of our 2013 foals is a little different! He's our 2nd silver bay (and !LOOKS! chestnut). He's EE, aA, nZ, TT. He hasn't been tested, but by all rights, since both parents have been, I don't need to test him. His sire is Iggy (EE, aa, nZ, TT) and his dam is Cheri (EE, aA, TT).

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If he remains a stallion that is used for breeding, he can be bred to all the chestnuts you want to cross him on - the resulting foals will never be chestnut. They could be bay - but they will all be eE (black). A mare with a cream gene will mean the foal would be buckskin or smokey black. All foals will also be Tobiano and 50% can be silver.

His color genetics are fascinating but it remains to be seen if he is stallion quality. I would love to have a couple of full sisters to him with his coloring! There's no guarantee that I'd get the bay or silver on more foals from this cross. They will all be EE (homozygous black) and TT (homozygous tobiano).

He has a WONDERFUL personality so far! I'm very happy with him.
 
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