color genetics question

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yankee_minis

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Wondering if a particular horse is either cremello or perlino.

If you breed a double dilute horse to a sorrel horse and get a buckskin, does that mean the double dilute horse hasto be a perlino?

Facts:

A cremello is the double cream gene on a chestnut horse.

A perlino is the double cream gene on a bay horse. (also has the agouti gene)

A smoky cream is a double cream gene on a black horse.

A palomino has one cream gene on chestnut.

A buckskin has one cream gene on bay. (also has the agouti gene)

A smoky black has one cream gene on black.
 

Heidi

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yankee_minis said:
If you breed a double dilute horse to a sorrel horse and get a buckskin, does that mean the double dilute horse hasto be a perlino?
I would think so...

My filly Q is the only buckskin out of 6 pairings of her sire/dam that resulted in all 5 other foals being palomino. Dam was a red dun (chestnut or sorrel/dun) and sire was a perlino. Ordinarily, you'd think the agouti came from the perlino (being that perlino is a double creme bay, which bay is a black w/ agouti) but doesn't the dam (red dun, sorrel or chestnut) have to contribute something to make the outcome other than palomino?

I don't know if she could, because black is dominant and would have 'hidden' the chestnut/sorrel gene visibly...which makes me think it must be the perlino. Chestnut/ sorrel cannot 'hide' black, but I think it can hide agouti? Don't know for sure.

SO...my filly's sire, being perlino (expressed because it is dominant) but I think he actually had a chestnut AND a black gene with agouti, both modified by the double creme genes...he could have passed the chestnut creme each time until Q came along and he gave the black w/agouti creme gene for her.

Heidi
 

rabbitsfizz

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Yes, the Perlino can contribute both Agouti and Black.

The Buckskin can then carry Sorrel.

Oooh....my mind is slowly freezing over
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I am pretty sure that's right but I've made one mistake this am so far and I've only just got up.
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Lauralee

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Make sure also that the sorrel horse in question is truly a sorrel and not a silver bay.
 

Miss_Fortune

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Well couldnt the sorrel also hide the agouti if it doesnt have a black gene?
 

Songcatcher

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yankee_minis said:
http://www.doubledilute.com/color-chart.htmThis link has a chart of foal color possibilities.

A cremello cannot have a buckskin foal. 

The agouti gene can't really "hide" as it is what makes the bay a bay -- the black points.  (buckskin too)

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The agouti gene "could" hide in Sorrel. Again, if the Sorrel was actually a Silver Bay (that sometimes are confused as Sorrel) it could contribute both the agouti and black gene to produce a buckskin from a Cremello. Just a posibility.
 

hhpminis

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But what I was saying that if the sorrel was a true sorrel it would not have the agouti gene. It would be double red period. Therefore to get a buckskin by these 2 parents there has to be something else there other than sorrel x cremello. That is why I thought pictures would be helpful.
 

Meavey

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hhpminis said:
But what I was saying that if the sorrel was a true sorrel it would not have the agouti gene.  It would be double red period.  Therefore to get a buckskin by these 2 parents there has to be something else there other than sorrel x cremello.  That is why I thought pictures would be helpful.
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Not true a sorrel can carry agouti too, it just doesn´t show on red.

The sire then had o be perlino OR smokey cream, don´t forget those!

One of the two had to be black based and one had to carry agouti, the red can carry it too!

The ONLY way to make sure your double dilute is cremello/perlino/smokey-cream is get a red/black and agouti test, you can´t always tell from their looks!
 

Magic

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A "red" horse (sorrel, palomino, cremello) can carry the agouti gene and not show it, and therefore pass it on. But two red horses (for example a cremello and a sorrel) can NOT have a buckskin foal-- since red is recessive and the two red horses would not carry the "black" gene that makes up a buckskin. So either the "cremello" is a perlino, or the "sorrel" is a silver bay, to contribute that black-based gene.
 

Magic

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Meavey said:
The ONLY way to make sure your double dilute is cremello/perlino/smokey-cream is get a red/black and agouti test, you can´t always tell from their looks!
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Very true! I have a very good friend that has a stallion that she thought was perlino, but had him tested and he is a cremello. He also carries an agouti gene, according to the tests, and is homozygous for pinto as well. Aren't those genetic tests awesome!!
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Meavey

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Magic said:
A "red" horse (sorrel, palomino, cremello) can carry the agouti gene and not show it, and therefore pass it on.   But two red horses (for example a cremello and a sorrel) can NOT have a buckskin foal-- since red is recessive and the two red horses would not carry the "black" gene that makes up a buckskin.   So either the "cremello" is a perlino, or the "sorrel" is a silver bay, to contribute that black-based gene.
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Or the sorrel carries agouti and sire is smokey cream like I said.
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Jup love genetic tests! Wish they would have more!

Like grey, silver, dun...
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~Palomino~

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Miss_Fortune said:
Well couldnt the sorrel also hide the agouti if it doesnt have a black gene?
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yes it could, but it still coudnt be a cremello, cause cremello's are homozygous for red, so are sorrels, so that black gene couldnt show up in there, meaning the agouti could still hide,

so he COULD be a smokey cream and your mare could hide the agouti

or he could be a perlino,

or that mare could be a silver bay.

Gage
 

Miniv

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Two possibilities come to mind with your description of crosses......

Either the double delute is a perlino (which has a black gene base)....OR... the

sorrel/chestnut is really a silver bay that looks like a sorrel/chestnut. The silver bay is of course also black gene based.

Would love to see photos.

MA
 

yankee_minis

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The horse isn't mine-- I'm looking into buying him.

He is registered as a cremello pinto, but they have someone familiar with genetics that said he is more likely a perlino because the cross with the sorrel created a buckskin.

It doesn't really matter to me whether he is perlino or cremello. (except I like buckskins and am more likely to get them with a perlino) I was just curious and was asking for myself and the current owner.
 

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