Clicker training, who uses it and do you find it helpful?

[cassie]

Hi Everyone,

I have a 6 month old colt that I am currently halter training, this is my first time I will be training a horse to do anything. all my other horses have been older and already trained.

So I am learning as much as he is if not more lol.

I have been reading and watching you tube clips on training and have noticed alot of people using the new clicker training. I looked it up and it seems to be a very good way of positive reinforcement and training.

So can you lovely mini horse people share with me how you train your foals/ horses.

do any of you use clicker training and do you find it good? or do you stay away from it and if so why?

I am just researching at the moment and haven't bought a 'clicker' yet so any information good or bad you could provide is much appreciated.

Thanks everyone

Cassie

 

[circlesinthesand]

I use clicker training with my dogs and love it. But I have concerns over using it with horses, but some of those concerns have to do with food aggression and large mooches. They're enough of a mooch when I give them an occasional treat and once food aggression starts, it's a hard habit to break with a horse. Of course we're dealing with mini's instead of the large horses that I'm more familiar with so I'd be interested to read others perspectives.

I still have concerns over the dietary issues it might create and in a mini I'd be more concerned but I suppose in careful moderation clicker training could work to some degree. In theory it will work with any animal, even humans, but what human do you know would be that food motivated? Personally I'm not. Or if I got to a point of starvation that I would be, would that be ethical? Dogs work best when they're a good bit hungry and many trainers use training sessions as the dog's entire meal for the day. Some recommend withholding meals until the dog is motivated. I'll be honest I have withheld meals occasionally and it's certainly effective. But it doesn't really hurt a dog who is equipped to deal with a large meal and go without eating for longer stretches of time. I doubt we'd have the fortitude to make our child miss a meal to teach it this way? and I really don't like making a horse miss meals either. And knowing how excited my dogs get and how calm I want my horse to be? I'm not interested in changing over to it as the only training method (I don't even use it as my only method for dogs.) I suppose for a specific problem that is not getting results from a more traditional method, I would surely consider it. Especially if nothing else was working. But as a grazer I wouldn't ever want to specifically withhold a meal on an unmotivated horse in order for it to be motivated enough to be trained effectively. Dogs can handle eating one large meal a day or extra food, horses cannot. Plus Horses and dogs are motivated differently and don't necessarily need it to still be trained positively. I have some horses (bigs) who have a very strong desire to please and very little food drive. A pat and a rub is reward enough for them Of course I have dogs that will work for pets and belly rubs too! You'll just have to find what motivates your horse and set him up to succeed

 

[shorthorsemom]

find the mountain woman here on the forum... she does clicker training with her minis with success. I have loved checking out her photos of the things her boy Cash can do as a result of clicker training. best wishes

 

[MountainWoman]

I use clicker training. Started with dogs and competed and titled dogs using clicker training. And one of my dogs was not food motivated. You do not have to use food to use a clicker. There are other motivators. Anyway, never knew you could use it with horses until I had an accident and knew I needed to find another way to reach my horse so we could work as a team. Tried the well known trainers' methods and they weren't working for me and my horse so I thought about clicker training and that's when I discovered Alexandra Kurland (master clicker trainer of horses) and my life (and my horses' lives) have never been the same. I use it for everything (including riding) and it's amazing. My horses can do tricks certainly but better yet they have practical daily skills. All of them enjoy working and really, the sky is the limit as to what you can achieve with your horse. Only caveat is clicker training is a learned skill. Take time to become informed. Don't just head out there with a clicker and food. There is a technique to it. Alexandra Kurland's page is a good place to start and also the yahoo horse training clicker list. Here's a post I did on my blog showing you how much fun clicker work can be. (especially with a smart horse http://redpinemounta...e-mountain-way/

Anyway, I could talk about clicker training for hours at a time. All I can say is it changed my life, the way I work with my horses and changed their lives as well. Really deepens the relationship. Gee, I can get teary eyed just thinking about it all.

 

[cassie]

Thanks, I have done some research and it seems if you use it the right way it can work very effectivley

will check out that site that you have posted thank you

I'm going to start with the target training and just take it slowly. the reason I was thinking of using clicker training is becuase I have been trying to halter train my mini colt (6 mnths old) and he doesn't seem to work out that he has to progress each time to get the treat... I'm hoping to learn enough about it to teach him well and get him going nicely on the halter.

Any other advice you can give is more then appreciated.

Thank you

 

[Marty]

I think clicker training has a place as a possitive reinforcement in training. I'm not one that needs any of my horses to target things and play games etc. and do all kinds of stuff like that but I have used it specifically as a problem solver. Case in point: Catching the uncatchables. Began with one that was always impossible to free catch in the field and all the feed buckets in the world made no difference. She was not going to be caught up like that. I was always having to run her in the barn and trap her in a stall. The clicker is what got her attention followed quickly by peppermint treats to start. Worked like a charm and that mare would stand beautifully the minute she heard that clicker. Since then I've had another one become uncatchable as well and did the same thing. Now I have backed off from the treats and use the "clicker in my mouth" and it still works. They have been weaned off of treats slowly and settle for a pat and praise. Ok so I might have a treat with me every now and then.....but not always.

 

[cassie]

thanks for the advice Marty

I definitley don't want Finn (my colt) to learn that he will get a treat every time but while he is learning I think its ok for him to get a treat. its only a little bit of feed lol. I was out with him just before doing target training. I held my left hand out to the side and when he touched my hand I clicked the clicker and gave him a small treat. he got the hang of it pretty good even though my dog was trying to compete for attention lol Kingston(my dog) would try to play with Finn distracting him for a few seconds so I would just wait with my hand out and not long after Finn would come back and put his muzzle to my hand click and treat

might try another session with him tonight

will try to aim for one a day. Finn doesn't get any hard feed morning or night as they are on good grass so the little treats is all the hard feed he will get. watched a really good youtube video on foal halter training with the clicker and it was really helpful. this is the video if you wanted to take a look...

she is a big foal. not a mini but still works good

thanks for everyones help

 

[circlesinthesand]

I use clicker training. Started with dogs and competed and titled dogs using clicker training. And one of my dogs was not food motivated. You do not have to use food to use a clicker. There are other motivators.

What are your other motivators? For the dogs I often use toys and their desire to do certain things (I have high drive working dogs who think chase games are a reward in themself) but for the life of me I can't see another motivator to help a horse. Rubs and pets are just not rewarding enough to many horses at first to be considered a high motivator. If I get them to the state that it is a motivator, the clicker is generally no longer needed. MAYBE you could use the desire to go out to pasture or with another horse but if I did that everytime my horses would never get trained as it would be very time consuming AND I'd have a buddy sour horse. I also enjoy discussing this. I do find it very highly effective for my dogs, I just have reservations about it really working better than traditional methods for a horse. I can see it being used for certain things and if all esle fails but you really can't stop a horse to give it a treat or even take the time to click when you're turning on a cow....for the mini's? yeah maybe, taken with a grain of salt and used occasionally...but for a working ranch horse? I think I can turn 'em out better by putting the time in the saddle.

Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to read it

thanks for the advice Marty

I definitley don't want Finn (my colt) to learn that he will get a treat every time but while he is learning I think its ok for him to get a treat. its only a little bit of feed lol.

I don't quite understand what you're saying there but for clarity, It is my understanding that the click should always follow with a reward otherwise the click looses value. You should be fading off the clicks (or markers, anything will do, a bell a chime, a simple easy to repeat word like 'yes' can be a 'click', it really should be called 'marker' training vs clicker training but once a catch phrase catches on...the 'clicker' only makes the marker more consistent as your voice will change) not the rewards and it should happen fairly quickly once the understanding starts happening otherwise the animal will always be dependent on the click. You can go back to reinforce a behavior but you want to fade the clicker quickly once understanding starts. This was one of my very first mistakes with the first dog I clicker trained was that I clicked too long. She will do anything for a click but if you remove the clicker she starts to be less reliable. My other dogs (I have 7 dogs of my own dogs that I've clicker trained and numerous others I've worked with) were still rewarded for behaviors but the clicker was completely removed once it was reliable. I haven't clicked with a couple of my dogs in years because they are that reliable.

 

[kaykay]

I am not a fan of clicker training for any animal. I would rather build a relationship built on mutual trust and respect than food rewards. While training this way generally takes more time and effort; it is time well spent in the long run.

I have taken a lot of heat over the years for my opinion on clicker training and thats okay.

Animals that are clicker trained are not consistent and are always looking for the treat. In horses that I have personally seen trained this way they are very mouthy and will stop performing (for lack of a better word) once they realize there is no treat. In most of the videos I have seen the animal be it dog or horse is constantly looking for the treat reward.

 

[MountainWoman]

I think everyone should use the method that works best for them and their animals. Clicker training when used correctly does not mean forever clicking and treating. The goal is to build the relationship, shape the behavior and move on and phase out the click and treat. That's why I suggested not just running out with clicker and treats without really learning the method correctly. Yes, I agree clicker horses can get mouthy in the beginning, it is the responsibility of the trainer to know how to phase out that behavior as well in the beginning of training. And clicker training is not a quick fix. It takes time and patience. Whatever is in your toolbox that works go for it. Kaykay, I respect your opinion. Everyone is different and that's what makes it a wonderful, exciting world.

 

[cassie]

Thanks for your opinion everyone I value it highly

The reason why I turned to clicker training for my colt is that he just wasn't arching on with the halter and lead training, as you say I will be fading out the clicker once he has caught on. He has mastered the target training and I did my first leading lesson with him this morning. He was great! He didn't go looking for the treat or the clicker and was content to walk around with me (only one way hehe stil gotta learn the other way) until I clicked I dnt plan to use clicker training for everything I do with Finn, but for this particular lesson I think it will be really helpful hoping so anyway

Oh to answer your earlier question circles in the sand he absoloutly loves getting scratches so I use that as another motivator, this morning he was getting a little nippy at me so instead of the food treat I gave him really good scratches in his favorite spot

worked a treat I think that was what iwas trying today yesterday sorry It was late at night for me and my thoughts got a little jumbled lol

Mountain woman how do you go from walking the, around to getting them to trot on the lead? If that makes any sense lol not saying Finn is ready for it yet but I want to know how to do it for when he is ready

Thanks for all your help

 

[susanne]

When you peel away the "majikal" aspect and look at what clicker training really is, it makes great sense. It works beautifully for us, and my horses are not mooches, nor are they inconsistent.

The click is instant feedback, telling your animal that they are behaving correctly at the exact moment they are doing it. With humans, we can say "When you washed the dishes last night, I was so proud and happy." To a horse or a dog, that moment is gone from their memory within seconds and they cannot connect delayed praise. The click lets you tell them they're good much more quickly than you could ever put it into words.

The "target" is merely the means of introducing the concept of "Click = reward." It is the first lesson. Once they get it, the "target" is no longer used. I didn't take Kurland's course. I found the basics on her website and took it from there. I don't use a clicker, but make a click with my mouth. As for food, I almost immediately eased off the treats and switched to scritches and verbal rewards. Once they know the click, this works just as well and does not invite mugging.

Clicker training does not take the place of a good relationship, and it is not a shortcut. Instead it complements good handling and a close bond and adds to the relationship.

Mingus is extremely "click"-oriented. He wants to be good (even if he is frequently quite naughty) and loves to receive his click. Scarlet learned to accept clipping, even her ears, through clicking. Whereas before she was a basketcase when the clippers came near, she learned that she got a click when she stood still, and that would be followed by cuddles and sweet talk, and accepted her haircuts.

My life has been complicated over the last few years with health problems, and in that time I let Scarlett get away with murder. She is a sweet girl and extremely loving, but she had become a bit bratty. Last spring when getting her hooves trimmed, she reared and struck my arm, breaking both bones. Once the cast was off, we went to work, cleaning hooves multiple times daily. I'd ask for her hoof, then lift it, and when she stood still for me, I clicked. Even though I hadn't used clicker work with her in some time, she remembered. After only a few times, she had gone from struggling for control of her feet, spastically yanking her feet away, to now lifting her hooves on command. The next time our farrier was back, she was the best of all three of our horses.

Clicker training is simply communication. No gimmicks -- just instant positive feedback. They crave it like candy.

 

[cassie]

When you peel away the "majikal" aspect and look at what clicker training really is, it makes great sense. It works beautifully for us, and my horses are not mooches, nor are they inconsistent.

The click is instant feedback, telling your animal that they are behaving correctly at the exact moment they are doing it. With humans, we can say "When you washed the dishes last night, I was so proud and happy." To a horse or a dog, that moment is gone from their memory within seconds and they cannot connect delayed praise. The click lets you tell them they're good much more quickly than you could ever put it into words.

The "target" is merely the means of introducing the concept of "Click = reward." It is the first lesson. Once they get it, the "target" is no longer used. I didn't take Kurland's course. I found the basics on her website and took it from there. I don't use a clicker, but make a click with my mouth. As for food, I almost immediately eased off the treats and switched to scritches and verbal rewards. Once they know the click, this works just as well and does not invite mugging.

Clicker training does not take the place of a good relationship, and it is not a shortcut. Instead it complements good handling and a close bond and adds to the relationship.

Mingus is extremely "click"-oriented. He wants to be good (even if he is frequently quite naughty) and loves to receive his click. Scarlet learned to accept clipping, even her ears, through clicking. Whereas before she was a basketcase when the clippers came near, she learned that she got a click when she stood still, and that would be followed by cuddles and sweet talk, and accepted her haircuts.

My life has been complicated over the last few years with health problems, and in that time I let Scarlett get away with murder. She is a sweet girl and extremely loving, but she had become a bit bratty. Last spring when getting her hooves trimmed, she reared and struck my arm, breaking both bones. Once the cast was off, we went to work, cleaning hooves multiple times daily. I'd ask for her hoof, then lift it, and when she stood still for me, I clicked. Even though I hadn't used clicker work with her in some time, she remembered. After only a few times, she had gone from struggling for control of her feet, spastically yanking her feet away, to now lifting her hooves on command. The next time our farrier was back, she was the best of all three of our horses.

Clicker training is simply communication. No gimmicks -- just instant positive feedback. They crave it like candy.

Hi Susanne, Thank you so much for sharing your story! how amazing the transformation that you have been able to make! A friend of mine has heaps and I mean heaps of trouble clipping her 2 year old filly for shows and has to get assistance I'm tempted to see if she should try clicker training with her

and I feel totally the same way regarding the clicker training

great way to teach them to learn, and then fase it off into normal life and work. I am already seeing this with my foal Finn and this is only his 4th lesson!! tempted to video one of his lessons and put it on here and see what you think, maybe you could give me any advice for him that you can think of.... would you all be happy to help me with that? would that be ok? please let me know. as I am still only learning myself hehe but already loving it!!

in tonights training lesson I did just one target training to keep fresh in his head that its lesson time. put his halter on (BEST he has ever been with getting his halter on!! clicked and treat after

) then started the walking, started as I did in the morning with my hand out in front and my other hand holding the lead and the clicker he did very well with this so I took my hand away and encouraged him to walk when I started walking

he did so good!!!! considering when I have tried prior to clicker training he wouldn't have a bar of it... after a while of walking THE WHOLE PADDOCK! with him like this I started putting the voice command "walk on" to my stepping forward, I only did this a couple of times before finishing the lesson but he is doing really well I am so proud of him! he even follows after me now and stays at the fence till I go

cutie little man!

at the moment I am using mostly food as the reward but am slowly going to scratches as well... I can't do much scratches at the moment as I have really bad excema and have to wear gloves when out with them, but once it has cleaned up I will go from food treats to scratches and other motivators

then I will slowly lesson the clicks and etc.... of course we have a long way to go before that

But I just wanted to say thank you to all you lovely people who have helped me with this, even just giving me the courage to try this its great to have such an awesome support group! even if you are on the other side of the world so thank you! and please feel free to post any more comments or things that you think of that would help me and Finn.

Cassie

 

[walkermini]

I use a form of clicker training, but use it for certain things....will explain below.

When I say a "form", I dont actually use a clicker...when I was first interested in clicker training, I had big horses and was talking to someone that did alot of clicker training. I waant sure how I could hold a clcker, treats, plus lead rope and have the control of a big horse all at the same time. The clicker trainer told me I could use a word or sound in place of a clicker, such a a kiss sound. I use the word "good". Its best if you use a word to use a one syllable word and something not similar to other words you may use (Like whoa for example).

As far as using it for certain things...I dont train my horses to do tricks, etc. And actually normally dont give treats by hand at all. When I have used the form of clicker training, it has been on horses I got that were scared of people, and I used it as reinforcement to let me handle, catch, etc. them. One mare I got wasnt afraid of people but would kick or bite when I tried to handle her legs. I used it to be able to handle her legs and she got to where I can trim her hooves and she nearly falls asleep.

 

[Peggy Hogan]

Cassie, just wanted to jump in here. I am a professional that uses clicker training almost exclusively. I have achieved profound results using the technique, both with full sized and minis. I've also used the technique to rescue some very troubled horses, dangerous horses or horses who had issues like trailering, vets, clipping and other important husbandry behaviors.

Clicker training is being used for training in just about every major venue of animal care and training; and people are getting results with animals that, in the past, would have been tranquilized to get care.

There are a lot of opinions about the tools and techniques, but that's to be expected with just about anything we do in life. I would advise you to learn about the science behind the technique. Find out by reading authors and trainers like Karen Pryor, Ken Ramirez, Alexandra Kurland. Read what they're doing with zoo animals.

Training horses definitely depends on the skill and knowledge of the trainer, whatever the method. If a horse is being trained using food as a reinforcer and that horse gets muggy, that's a sign of the trainer, not the method. But ALL behavior changes, regardless of the method. If behavior was static then you would always have the same results every time you asked a horse to do something. That isn't realistic. Horses change from day to day and handler to handler. That is true for people using clicker training, NH or any other form of training.

One thing I'd like to suggest you think about as you choose your tools. With positive reinforcement the horse is making decisions to move towards something it wants. With negative reinforcement (NH, pressure/release training) the horse is trained to move away from something that has, at it's base, an aversive. In other words it's moving away from something it doesn't want. This is science, not opinion. I know many people will disagree with the statement, but it's true none-the-less.

So you might think about how you want to be in the eyes of your horse.

 

[cassie]

Cassie, just wanted to jump in here. I am a professional that uses clicker training almost exclusively. I have achieved profound results using the technique, both with full sized and minis. I've also used the technique to rescue some very troubled horses, dangerous horses or horses who had issues like trailering, vets, clipping and other important husbandry behaviors.

Clicker training is being used for training in just about every major venue of animal care and training; and people are getting results with animals that, in the past, would have been tranquilized to get care.

There are a lot of opinions about the tools and techniques, but that's to be expected with just about anything we do in life. I would advise you to learn about the science behind the technique. Find out by reading authors and trainers like Karen Pryor, Ken Ramirez, Alexandra Kurland. Read what they're doing with zoo animals.

Training horses definitely depends on the skill and knowledge of the trainer, whatever the method. If a horse is being trained using food as a reinforcer and that horse gets muggy, that's a sign of the trainer, not the method. But ALL behavior changes, regardless of the method. If behavior was static then you would always have the same results every time you asked a horse to do something. That isn't realistic. Horses change from day to day and handler to handler. That is true for people using clicker training, NH or any other form of training.

One thing I'd like to suggest you think about as you choose your tools. With positive reinforcement the horse is making decisions to move towards something it wants. With negative reinforcement (NH, pressure/release training) the horse is trained to move away from something that has, at it's base, an aversive. In other words it's moving away from something it doesn't want. This is science, not opinion. I know many people will disagree with the statement, but it's true none-the-less.

So you might think about how you want to be in the eyes of your horse.

HI Peggy thank you so much for stopping by here and giving me your opinion it is much appreciated and valued.

I am loving the idea of the positive reinforcement rather then negative which is one of the reasons why I love the clicker training so much. I will take a look at the names you have given me thank you.

going to finish work soon and do another lesson with him, I am definitley still learning and Finn is doing really well so I hope I'm handling everything in the right way

I'm thinking I might try working on his mum with clicker training too... and would love your opinion on how I should go about it? Suzie is the sweetest mare and loves everyone, she has never been taught to lunge and as I'm considering showing her in the spring I need to get that baby tummy down and bit and thought lunging would be the best way... I saw some you tube clips of people training their horses to free lunge (after a while of learning the clicker training of course) with using the whip in front as a traget and getting them to walk and trot for that whip... how do you teach your horses to lunge? I would love some advice with this, she is a lazy mare ( I love her to bits but it is true LOL) and I have to really push her to lunge... so any ideas would be much appreciated Thank you

 

[Peggy Hogan]

HI Peggy thank you so much for stopping by here and giving me your opinion it is much appreciated and valued.

I am loving the idea of the positive reinforcement rather then negative which is one of the reasons why I love the clicker training so much. I will take a look at the names you have given me thank you.

going to finish work soon and do another lesson with him, I am definitley still learning and Finn is doing really well so I hope I'm handling everything in the right way

I'm thinking I might try working on his mum with clicker training too... and would love your opinion on how I should go about it? Suzie is the sweetest mare and loves everyone, she has never been taught to lunge and as I'm considering showing her in the spring I need to get that baby tummy down and bit and thought lunging would be the best way... I saw some you tube clips of people training their horses to free lunge (after a while of learning the clicker training of course) with using the whip in front as a traget and getting them to walk and trot for that whip... how do you teach your horses to lunge? I would love some advice with this, she is a lazy mare ( I love her to bits but it is true LOL) and I have to really push her to lunge... so any ideas would be much appreciated Thank you

Cassie....if you get a chance check out Peggasus09 on YouTube. I've got lots of videos, some for entertainment, some educational, all about clicker training. I'd love to know if you think there's one in particular you find helpful.

 

[cassie]

ok will take a look thanks Peggy

 

[MountainWoman]

Cassie,

I'd suggest you purchase the book "The Click That Teaches, A Step By Step Guide In Pictures" by Alexandra Kurland. It's not a big investment of money and it will answser your questions, has lots of photos and easy to follow steps. It also has minis in it.

My copy is so dog eared and worn from being with me all the time and I consider it one of the best purchases I've ever made. Here's a link to Alexandra's page. Hope it's okay to post it. http://www.theclickercenter.com/aboutclickertraining.html

I'd also join Clickryder on Yahoo Groups. Here's the link to that: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/clickryder/ It's not a high traffic list but it's an amazing group of people who are dedicated to cicker training and are happy to help.

I think you'll discover when you start to use clicker training, you'll find your horse will tell you what he wants and needs from you. It's an exciting journey and a very personal journey as well because essentially you are forging a strong bond through a different form of communication. You learn so much about yourself in the process as well. There will be times of incredible highs as you see your horse "get it" and you realize you did this as a team. I guarantee you'll never look at training the same way.

Hope that helps.

 

[hippocampe]

Hi, I've been training a little bit my dogs by clicker training. I'm an absolute beginner and still in the phase to click for fun... will mean my dogs didn't learn something really usefull with clicker-training, but they had fun and me too!

I was doubtfull about clicking horses, I had doubts about rewarding by treats and also if a horse would really offer an action to me...

What I've understood in clicker training (I hope it's right), is that at the beginning ou don't ask for something, but you let your animal try to make you click by offering a mouvement, an activity.. something he could do. (excuse my bad english, I'm french and do really my best

) Whenever he does something you expect, or you like, you click & reward. So he will offer you the same again and again, and when you reach the phase, you know he will do it, than you can start to fix a name for this action to ask for it.

Regardless of my doubts for clicking horses, I tried with my mini "Icon". First day just loading the clicker. Icon looked concentrated at me and stood nearly still. Because I was just (resultless) trying to teach him to stand without a move, even when I go back a few steps, I took this opportunity to improve his standing. It was great, he never stood so immobile... but for the first clicker-experience, it was non-sense: nothing is so inactive than just standing, so my mini had nothing to offer to me... so the next step was a little bit difficult, because he was just standing, an waiting.

Good luck, somme flies helped me

... and Icon shaked his head. Happy that he did anything, I clicked for this... and later on I add the order "schütteln" (means shake in german... yes I'm french, but speak french-german-mix with my animals an family, because my husband is german)

here is a short video of the 4th clicking exercice with Icon. Not perfect of course, remember I'm a bloody beginner, but Icon is volontary and intelligent. he learns quickliy.

http://youtu.be/sH-G8uU84r0

So...and I've just visit Peggy's website and find it nice, so I've download the clicker-tips vol.1+2

Happy of having found some infos, advices and training-ideas for clicking horses!!