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capall beag

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Just read on another post something I did not know. I should I say another thing I did not know!


I have a true raon stallion, out of one true roan parent.

Does this mean he could not be bred to another roan??

Is this any roan or a true roan, what about a blue roan pinto etc

Would really appreciate advice on this!
 

rabbitsfizz

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Fiona, there is no real problem breeding Roan to Roan, you will just have the mare come back into season if she has not got a viable foal- it's not like LWO where you get a dead foal. Opinions vary on this but, from personal experience the foal is reabsorbed before 30 days if it is not viable.
 

Marion

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There are red roans and blue roans. I don't think that there is any problem breeding roans to roans.
 

SunQuest

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The issue has nothing to do with the color of the roans involved. It is the gene that causes roaning that is the issue. It is just that a roan to a roan cross of any color would have a 25% chance of the fetus being reabsorbed. So if you are breeding a mare to a stallion that is not your own, you would want to consider the possibility that the mare may test in foal and then come up open very soon afterwards.
 

rabbitsfizz

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Any colour can be a base for Roan- Bay, Dun, Black etc, any colour at all. There is definitely a problem, it just does not produce dead foals, or live non-viable foals as does Frame . Roan to Roan will give you 25% (OH GOSH I hope I got that right I ma HOPELESS at %
) non-viable foetus's which, in my experience , are reabsorbed before 30 days- the mare then comes back into heat normally and you assume she did not "take" and rebreed. You can continue until you get a viable foetus- once the foetus is set it will be a normal foal.
 

SunQuest

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rabbitsfizz said:
(OH GOSH I hope I got that right I ma HOPELESS at %
)
Oh you got it perfectly right Rabbitsfizz! You can do math just fine! Laughs and we were posting at the same time


On a side note, if one doesn't care about the 25% not viable issue, if one breeds the roans together one will have a 50% chance of getting a roan. But, this is the same rate that one would have if one just bred a roan to a non-roan horse. So no real advantage to breed two roans together just based on coloring.
 

Rowan94

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I don't think there will be any problem I just heard breeding a roan will prouduce a foal with a faded color.

Hope I could help
 

Stephanie

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Here is a quote from this month's Miniature Horse World on page 52 "From the Genetics Committee":

Contrary to some prior thinking, two roans bred together cannot result in a "lethal roan" (dead) foal. Furthermore, many roans are getting their roan appearance from an appaloosa gene, not from a "true roan" gene. The pattern and color genetics is quite different in each of these cases.
 

SunQuest

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Stephanie said:
Here is a quote from this month's Miniature Horse World on page 52 "From the Genetics Committee":
Contrary to some prior thinking, two roans bred together cannot result in a "lethal roan" (dead) foal.
This is interesting. I missed that in the World. But what I would like to know is what that information was based on??? Of course there would be no dead foal as the embrio doesn't make it to the point of developing into a foal. The embrio is absorbed long before it becomes a viable pregnancy. I really wish they would have listed more about it. I will have to look at the article when I get home tonight.

But they are absolutely correct in that many minis are not true roans. In fact, most roans that I have seen are due to the appy gene or pinto genes. There are some, just not very many true roans in our breed.
 

Fred

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Having had full size appaloosas for close to 30 years I have heard of the lethal

roan gene, but with appys. I have also heard of foals born and dying soon after

from the lethal white gene with pinto and paint horses. Linda B
 

Dona

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Stephanie said:
Here is a quote from this month's Miniature Horse World on page 52 "From the Genetics Committee":
Contrary to some prior thinking, two roans bred together cannot result in a "lethal roan" (dead) foal.  Furthermore, many roans are getting their roan appearance from an appaloosa gene, not from a "true roan" gene.  The pattern and color genetics is quite different in each of these cases.

446719[/snapback]

That was a very poor statement for a "genetic's" committee to make!
I would think they would know better.) No wonder people get confused!!!
"Technically" it IS a correct statement, as there will be NO foal (as Sunquest as pointed out). So, of course breeding roan to roan won't result in a "lethal roan (dead) foal.
But that statement leads one to believe there are NO problems breeding true roan to true roan...when there most definitely is! It's just that the fetus is reabsorbed when two lethal genes are passed.
 

rabbitsfizz

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Linda, the only Pinto pattern that carries Lethal White is Frame. Unfortunately Frame can "lurk" in absolute minimal form- ie one blue eye, or as a blaze as in Rowdy's case. Most Mini owners are well aware of this and test for LWO if they even suspect there is a chance. Whilst a lot of big horse breeders stick their heads firmly in the sand and still believe on "crop out" and that a blaze is not a Pinto marking. This is why LWO foals seem to be exclusively in big horses these days, I have not heard of a mini LWO for absolutely AGES.
 

Southern_Heart

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I bred my Blue roan Stallion(Rain) to my Blue roan mare(Charsima) and we had a beautiful blue roan filly!!

We didn't have any problems at all.

I also read the article in the MHW mag. Thought it was very interesting!

Joyce
 

Dona

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Southern_Heart said:
I bred my Blue roan Stallion(Rain) to my Blue roan mare(Charsima) and we had a beautiful blue roan filly!!We didn't have any problems at all.

I also read the article in the MHW mag. Thought it was very interesting!

Joyce

447050[/snapback]

That would mean only one of the parents threw the "roan" gene this time.


Breeding those two together, simply means that you will have a 25% chance of both throwing the gene, which would result in the mare reabsorbing the embryo.

Congratulations on your blue roan filly!
 

capall beag

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On reading the replies I think it would be fine!!!!

My stallion is a true roan and a lady is interested in him and she has a roan pinto mare BUT I think this roan comes from an app background NOT roan because neither of the parents of her filly were true roan.

I just want to let her know if he would make an unsuitable boy for her!

Maybe I am just looking for excuses not to sell him
 

zacharyfarms

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Coat pattern identification confusion stems from a

misunderstanding of the term "roan" on the part of some registries.

The actual meaning of this term is quite simple - a mixture of

basecoat colour and white hairs. It doesn't mean spots of dark on

white, it means a mingling of white hairs with individual hairs that

are basecoat coloured.

Over time, the term "roan" has come to mean different things to

different people, and has been used as a sort of catch-all to label

such a wide variety of patterns, both Appaloosa-specific and other -

even greys get called roans!

When it comes to the Appaloosa roan and the Classic Roan

These are two types of roan patterning caused by two

different genes that each act their own unique ways. The LP(appaloosa)

gene, located on equine chromosome 1, is the main cause of the type of

roaning found in Appaloosas. Researchers believe that Classic roan

is caused by a gene called RN, and that it's a mutation of the KIT

gene, located on equine chromosome 3.

Classic roan comes in early (generally during

the first year of life, quite apparent after shedding of the foal

coat) and seems to be a bit more stable over time - comes in sooner,

and though it fluctuates a bit from year to year, and over the

calender year, it's fairly predictable and doesn't progress a whole

lot with age. At least one parent must carry a dominant copy of RN for the

foal to inherit it.. The classic roan has been the subject of several

studbook studies and is still thought to be homozygous lethal, meaning that there are no horses that are RNRN - Some breeders cross heterozygotes (RNrn), but

RNRN fetuses are not viable, and terminate naturally well before gestation is complete. However Ann T. Bowling of UC Davis was working on a study that refuted the homozygous roan lethal effect when she died in 2002. Her husband Michael was putting final touches on this study as of December 2004 and UCD was preparing to report the finding.. Previously thought was the apparent outcome in breeding roans to roans is roughly two

thirds roan to one third non roan.

What was thought was actually happening is that roan/roan is breeding two

heterozygous horses, and getting 25% nonroan, 50% heterozygous roan,

and seeing reduced fertility, since the 25% homozygous roan foals

never develop.

Also there are Sabino and Rabicano flecking which can mimic roan

if heavily expressed. Both of those also increase with age, as

opposed to classic roan, and are usually most prominent on the

barrel, and can be present on the face and legs, where as classic

roan does not effect the face and legs.

In contrast, LP-caused roan can do all sorts of odd things. There

usually isn't any present at birth, and often it doesn't start until

the onset of sexual maturity, or later, in some cases taking many

years to appear. It is generally progressive over time, and some

horses are affected so strongly they go from having almost no white

hairs to nearly white (BUT they retain their "varnish marks", the

areas where the number of darkly pigmented hairs is higher, on the

bony prominances of the face and body). Others get LP-caused

roaning, then lose some of it. Seems to happen with snowflakes,

a "clumped" form of LP-roaning that is very, very unstable in many

instances. At least one parent must carry a dominant

copy of LP and pass it on for LP-roaning to appear. Roaning

progresses over time, though not necessarily in a regular, gradual

manner. It may stop and start, and even go backwards in some

cases. Also, the distribution of white hairs is unique to LP-

carriers.

Also there are Sabino and Rabicano flecking which can mimic roan

if heavily expressed. Both of those also increase with age, as

opposed to classic roan, and are usually most prominent on the

barrel, and can be present on the face and legs, where as classic

roan does not effect the face and legs.

Clear as mud eh??
 
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minicount

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Barbara Nauviaux wrote the article for MHW. The rumor is that Dr. Anne Bowling of the University of California at Davis disproved that breeding roan to roan would result in the absorbsion of the fetus 25% of the time.

Is it true? I don't know but Dr. Bowling was (at that time anyways) the only geneticist that would work or share ideas with the "non" geneticist, Barbara Nauviaux.

I have also heard that they have been unable to recreate the original study in which indicated that 25% would die in-uterus.

We have bred roans for decades including roan to roan, and enjoy the same percentage of first cover conception and carry on the roans as the non-roans roughly 85%. I have always thought the roan to roan theory to be false.

Appy roans and true roans look quite different, at least to someone who has bred them for a very long time.

*I should add that we are not huge breeders of roan to roan but QH and mini we breed ten, somtimes more but not less, roan to roans every year for the last 30 or so years.
 
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