Breed, show, or both? I need help with conformation advice on these girls

[Ike]

Hi there, I have two girls and I am semi new to miniatures. I don't fully understand the finer points of conformation like hips and shoulders and so on. I know the more obvious things such as legs, bite, heads, body proportion. I am one of those people who has to actually see it and compare good to bad instead of just read about it. I was wondering if I could get a little feedback on these girls, to see if either or both could show or breed and what should I look for in a stallion to compliment them, also any particular bloodlines that may cross well.

Please be kind about your answers, I have read alot of stuff on here and some long time breeders can be very harsh ( No offense ) So if that is what you aim to do then please do not answer at all. I am young and in college and unfortunately can not afford those beautiful show horses with amazing bloodlines so I don't want people yelling or laughing at me because I still need to learn a lot of things.

Ok so first off I have a yearling filly whom I rescued here in the beginning of May from a friend who decided to starve her. She is still slightly thin but almost there. She is going through a growth spurt right now so these pics look like a lot of leg and she still has winter fuzz on her lower legs and ears. I dont have anyone to help me take pictures so these are the best I have. She has good legs and chest in the front and her back legs are straightening after she put on weight and got her feet trimmed for the first time a couple weeks ago. She has good bloodlines. Her daddy is nationally titled, Lilliput Acres Show Me Arrogance, and her mom is Gold Melody bred.

She is the little black one.

The other is my perlino pinto 4yr old mare by Canterbury Gold Rush and a pretty smokey black pinto mare named Z-Allante. Again I only have rough pictures from the side because I have no help and cant pose them. She has a good front end and back end for legs and chest area. She is slightly overweight so please dont compare her too much to the filly's size.

 

[fourluckyhorseshoes]

I'm not a conformation expect so this is just my opinion--

Horse 1: Seems to be post legged, since she is young she has time to fill out and her shape will change, so it can be difficult to assess now.

Horse 2: Neck seems a bit thick, short and ties low into the shoulder. As for legs your horse seems to be in a stretch/camped out position and since in very tall grass it is hard to tell what the rest of the leg looks like. She also seems a little thick though her throat latch. She seems like she could be an okay show horse if she was toned up a bit.

Personally I don't see breeding top breeding quality, but that's my opinion. The filly has time to fill out and straighten up. Of course you can show both horses. You haven't shown videos of their movement which is desirable for driving. They may also be great jumpers and obstacle hoses. You can just practically show any horse. You just need to find which class is best for them and what you enjoy.

 

[Sandee]

At a year old there's no definite way to tell how they'll end up. One and two year olds often don't have good proportions but then "grow into" something else. My opinion of her is she looks ok. Hard to really tell much from these photos.

The second one looks like the neck ties in too low but pictures don't always show the "real" horse. Even is her neck is low she might do well in performance classes.

 

[MountainWoman]

Your minis are beautiful and I'm so glad you gave the filly a wonderful home. I want to add to Sandee's post that the horses do change as they mature especially if you have a horse that was underweight to begin with. Wait another 6 months and you'll see some big changes as she gets better care and matures. There are many classes to consider and you don't necessarily have to show in halter.

I think both of your girls are lovely.

 

[stormy]

First of all kudos to you for giving the little black filly a better home and a chance at life and double kudos for seeking out help in deciding what their future should be!

From these pictures I would say neither mare is a halter type but halter is a very tiny part of what is available in the show ring. Personally I like the second mare a little better then the filly, but yearlings are nototiously hard to criteque, they can change so much. Where you could do well, showmanship, obstacle...takes a horse with a good mind and good relationship with the handler to do these classes, driving...the cremello has a nice long hip, good muscle...good motor, would just need to find what type of movement she has to chose a class and once driving my favorite class driving obstacle and maybe even versatility if she enjoys jmping as well.

Right now I would hold off breeding, develop their performance skills first.....kind of like finishing school before starting a family...those skills increase their value and make it easier to handle them and work with any babies they may have in the future...

Good luck and enjoy!!

 

[Ike]

Thank you guys for your opinions. I am more experienced with quarter horse conformation so these little guys are still new to me and I live in central MN so there are no actual reputable show/breeding farms around here so all I have been able to do is look at pictures online and hope that I am getting it for the most part. I am sadly a person that has to see it instead of read about it and have something to compare it to otherwise I wont understand what I am looking at.

Like I have said the filly is still puting on weight and she is going through a growth spurt so her legs are really long right now and she wouldnt let me clip her legs so everything from the knees and hocks down are long winter hair. I think with not having the proper nutrition over the winter she couldnt grow a summer coat and shed her winter one as early as the other horses. She just started about two weeks ago.

As for the the perlino mare she is thick because she is over weight. I am starting her in harness this week and she wont even fit in my harness so she is getting some long walks down the road for weight control and desensitizing to cars and stuff.

I do not plan to breed them until next year or the year after. I dont graduate until next fall and I have already had problems with a mini foaling while I was in class a couple years ago so I decided to let them go and hold off until I graduated so I could be around for any problems. But I found this little girl at a former friends and she would have only survived a couple more days she was so skinny so I brought her home and knew she would need a buddy so I found this perlino mare.

I know they have potential and have smaller faults but I also know we all had to start somewhere so I do plan to breed them eventually and get good quality foals through the generations to come but not for a while.

I don't have a video camera so I couldnt put anything up on their movement. If I can find someone to help me one of these days I will try to pose them so you can see whats going on a little better.

 

[fourluckyhorseshoes]

I'm not trying to "start anything" or "trying to be mean" but I would suggest really having a plan and knowing what you want to get when you are breeding. What is your goal? If you just want to have a baby there are much easier, safer, and less expensive ways to get one. Before you breed you need to have a good understanding of all areas of conformation--understanding everything from head to tail. Know the faults of your mare and your stallion and don't expect a stallion to make up for all of a mare's faults. Even if you plan and you think everything will go a certain way you never really know what you are going to get.

 

[Tab]

The way I feel about it. If there is no possibility of the horse competing in the conformation ring, it should not be bred either. I'm not saying yours can't, it's just a philosophy to have. Are the gals registered? Exercise and maturity can do wonders, that is my view on the black filly. She is kind of goose rumped. In my experience you don't suddenly get angles on a horse with shallow angles, but maturity can smooth out a lot of rough edges!

My opinion, don't let opinions discourage you and give the filly time. Everyone has an opinion. I had one that went through heinous stages that has turned out really nice. The dilute mare looks solid for driving. But for breeding, I wouldn't breed a rescue, I would save up for the best mare in my price range to breed.

 

[MountainWoman]

Thank you for giving this filly a great home and saving her and for recognizing that horses need horse companions. I think you'll do fine in your future endeavors and wish you the best of luck. If breeding is in your future, I hope you join us over on the MareStare Board. It's really a lot of fun over there.

 

[ohmt]

Kudos for asking questions and giving the girls a great home. I can think of a dozen amazing breeders/trainers/horse owners in your vicinity too. Send me a pm if you ever want names or help. I am only 2 hrs from my hometown of Alexandria (central MN), and I head out that way quite a bit. Mary Wilson and Mike Degner would also be incredibly close to you. They are the sweetest.

 

[fourluckyhorseshoes]

You can also check this page under your state

http://www.lilbeginnings.com/breeders/

For your state:

http://www.lilbeginnings.com/breeders/mn/index.html

 

[jandjmc]

I'll repeat, thank you for providing a home for a rescue and giving her a pal! It's a noble thing to do and they will provide you with so much joy.

Since you have just now entered the mini world from the quarter horse world (where I came from also), might wait before you make any long term plans for either horse. The young one, because it is sooo difficult to do a good analysis. They change too much as they grow and this will especially be the case with a youngster who hasn't received good care. The 4 year old, because as you say she does need to lose weight, however, several things can be determined now such as her low neck tie-in, short neck and thick throat latch, which indicate she isn't a good prospect to produce the type of horses that are winning in halter. With that said, I have a gelding who has the same kind of back-end and is a bit short necked, who is a moving sucker!! So you might look at her movement and temperament to determine if she is a good driving prospect.

So give yourself some time to get your horses into shape/get some growth and for you to learn more about minis and their confirmation.

You may eventually decide you want to get into breeding, but I'll repeat something I've heard in all horses breeds that is true, "Breed the best to the best and hope for the best".

Glad to have you in the mini world!

 

[Ike]

Thank you for your advice guys! It really does help.

I just want to note that both are registered and the I had gone with my former friend to get this filly from the former Fox Hollow Miniatures so I did know a bit about her before I found her at his place this spring. The perlino pinto is driving bred also, her sire and grandsire on the mothers side are or were both in the showring for driving and did well. I just dont know anything about the movement for the classes.

Eventually I do want to breed for both halter and driving horses and I have seen alot worse than these two. I want to breed for dillute pintos with splash, frame, and tovero as my specialty. I am young and dont need famous horses right away because for one thing I am going to be paying for school for a very long time to be able to afford those several thousand dollar horses. Sorry they are beautiful but I have to pay out of pocket right now for vet school and I also want something to build up. I want to say down the road that these girls may not have been "perfect" but after finding the right stallions that will compliment the mares and seeing generations downt the road becoming good show horses for either activity. I do plan on getting a few nicer horses someday also but that shouldnt mean I have to shove these guys aside and not take a chance on improving them. Like I have said before we all had to start somewhere and I want to work for it to deserve it not only buy something already beautiful enough to win.

 

[disneyhorse]

I disagree with the statement that "I have seen a lot worse" as a justification to breed, as well as the statement "take a chance on improving them."

I'm simply not one to sugarcoat breeding inferior quality animals just because a person is unwilling or unable to buy quality ones.

I don't know what you've invested in your horses, but rather than buying two $500 mares, a person might find better quality available by spending $1000 on a single mare, etc.

People always flaunt that "not all horses that are quality are super expensive" which is true... But the deal is sometimes harder to find and is usually found with an experienced eye.

I don't want to discourage you, but I've found that the most successful newbies hold off on major purchases and really buddy up with a mentor in the breed.

Although I don't feel your mares are breeding quality, I do think they will be fun in the show ring for you until you can trade up.

Good luck to you,

Andrea

 

[Ike]

I truely have seen alot worse than these two mares. I have seen several minis that come from breeders just to breed little horses and say they are quality even though they are only a couple hundred dollars and they are so badly conformed with terrible legs, no chest, a neck that comes out of their legs, and a tail set by their hocks. I have also seen breeders asking over a thousand for something with health issues and its cowhocked or something. And I also understand that if I breed them to whatever stallion that the foal can go either way and be worse or better. I have seen it where someone pairs two national champions together and get a super badly conformed foal. It is a chance all breeders take whether we want to hear it or not.

I know my girls have their faults and I am not overlooking that at all like some may think, but they are nothing as major as super narrow chest, club feet, cow hocks or dwarfism or anything that could potentially bring them pain such as arthritis later on.

They are not as bad as they look on the pictures and I do have enough of an eye to see that but they are literally in your face and on the move all the time so those are the best clear pictures I could get.

Its almost just like with a famous paint stallion I know of that is deaf. Is it right to breed him and risk his offspring inheriting this quality or say this is a small fault to what could come out of it. I am sorry if that sounds too optimistic but that is how I naturally am and sadly always will be.

Sorry if I sound too defensive but it really discourages me when someone kind of hints that you are a bad person for not spending thousands of dollars on a horse with super conformation and a super pedigree and want to use a couple of ok but not outstanding pair of horses to breed someday down the road and attempt to improve them. I know it can go either way.

I wish I could go to shows and actually see what I need to but they only have them in the southern part of the state and that is over a five hour drive one way. I pay out of pocket for school so I cant afford the fuel to go that far let alone be able to afford a horse that is over a thousand dollars. I wish but unfortunately I have to wait it out and be happy with what I have.

I am not ashamed of these two girls even with their faults and plan on training both to drive like I had with all my former minis, although I am not sure if it is the right way. I just looked at pictures online to see kind of how to hook up the harness and cart but really still dont know if it is the right way. Lol. The horses havn't complained so far though.

 

[fourluckyhorseshoes]

In just the few years I've been on this forum, I've noticed this type of post again and again. A new-ish person to minis comes asking for a critique/advice for their horses and if they should breed. Experts and others that have had decades of experience in the business give their opinion and the original person is offended and defensive and thinks breeders are snotty and elitist and think only high dollar horses count. There never seems to be an agreement or coming to common ground. I guess all I can say is live and learn. Maybe one day your advice will change for a newbie looking to breed a mare they have.

Here's a good thread to read if you are interested :

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=122669&hl=%2Bnewbies+%2Bwake

 

[chandab]

This website might help you out in the harnessing department: http://www.regencymini.com/Regency_/Mini_Driving_101.html Lots of good information and direction on driving.

 

[disneyhorse]

As you see, free horses can be found without breeding more of them. It's hard enough to sell a good quality horse.

My first minis, although I did show them, were not near as nice of quality as the horses I choose now, although my budget hasn't increased necessarily.

Your original topic title is "show, breed, or both" as a question and I'm strongly recommending you NOT breed either but rather just show and learn.

Your attitude is just as poor as those you point fingers back at, so please consider your viewpoint.

When you offer photos and information on a public place, you are opening yourself to all sorts of opinions. If you don't want to open your mind and hear them, then don't ask for them.

Some of us have dedicated a lot of time and money into these little horses and we care VERY strongly about the breed as a whole. To turn a blind eye to an uneducated breeding decision would be very hard for some of us to do. We are very passionate and that is why so many reputable breeders will be "harsh" to those only wanting to hear "oh what a cute horse, she is double dilute so she should make you a pretty colored baby."

 

[wingnut]

I am not a conformation expert, but I'm slowly but surely learning my way. I agree with all that has been said before me. The yearling needs time to grow and recover from her poor living conditions before making any determinations as to her breeding potential.

I was in your shoes 4 years ago, except I had no horse experience at all. I casually went a long with my husband's idea of likely breeding the horses we bought in order to "make some money back" and what wouldn't be fun about having an adorable baby around?

Thankfully, I spent time here learning exactly how this was NOT what I needed to do for/to myself. I cannot, with good conscience, risk the lives of my beloved mares for a potential foal that won't be much better than hundreds (thousands) of others already out there. $$$ are a factor, but more importantly, the well being of my horses is my #1 priority. While my one girl is doing very well in our local shows, I still won't breed her. One reason being she's just not quality enough. No one says you can't breed in the future, but to ask you to really take a hard look at these girls and ask yourself: "will I truly be doing something good by breeding and producing another round of "just okay" horses?"

I wish you the best of luck as you finish your college career. It *is* fun to look forward into the future at your next phase in life!

 

[Ike]

I am sorry, I really am trying to listen but like I had asked originally if you are going to be harsh and mean and rip me a new one about things instead of kind and helpful I asked you not to reply.

I did this so a fight would not start, as that was never my intention.

I promise I do want to learn and listen.

I am just a super shy and very optimistic person who likes to look at all sides before I form an opinion and I was kindly trying to just state another side in my last post not come off as rude, disrespectful, and starry eyed. I apologise if it came across that way, it was not my intention to sound that way.

I am being honest as I say this, not defensive, I have very sensitive feelings and will seriously cry if someone sounds mean or harsh, it makes me want to stay away from the horse world. I was literally crying as I read through some harsh posts feeling like people were yelling at me and I was about to get slapped for even having the thought of breeding cross my mind. This is why I asked for no harsh or mean replies, as I was only trying to avoid this.

If someone wants to give me an honest opinion with a gentle attitude and way of saying it I would eagerly listen and not want to cringe away from people and give up what I love.

All I ask is please dont reply if being harsh and mean is your intention.

I have always wanted to raise and show horses and really dont want to lose my confidence and give that up because it really did take alot of guts for me to even go on here and ask knowing how some people can reply.

I want honest, helpful answers, just not harsh ones.

Again I do not want to start a fight and sound rude and defensive so I apologise to any who thought I was.