I recently started taking my stallion out on driving trails and endurance style driving. I have a problem when he gets to water and never seeing it as a stream or massive puddles scares the crap outta him. The one problem I have is he tried to whirl around and head the opposite direction and I am able to counter that but then he starts backing up and I cant get him to stop, is there a trick I'm missing? And this is a horse that hates to back up normally so I know he is in panic mode. I try using my verbal commands and the whip to get forward motion or even a halt but he doesn't respond until the cart hits a rut etc. When it comes to fight or flight he is definitely a flight response horse.
Backing up in cart
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Rocklone Miniature Horses
past member -I gotta get a life...
Interested to hear the thoughts on this one.
In my head, I would be wanting to turn their head back on themselves so they can't go backwards but then I also see this could flip the cart of the horse lies down and could yank their mouths.
One thing I will say though, if a horse is panicking the last thing you want to do is start whipping it. I know you will not be literally whipping the life out of it, but still. I don't mean that as a criticism by the way, it's a natural response I think.
In my head, I would be wanting to turn their head back on themselves so they can't go backwards but then I also see this could flip the cart of the horse lies down and could yank their mouths.
One thing I will say though, if a horse is panicking the last thing you want to do is start whipping it. I know you will not be literally whipping the life out of it, but still. I don't mean that as a criticism by the way, it's a natural response I think.
Reignmaker Miniatures
Well-Known Member
Here is my opinion , for what its worth, on this situation.
First, if your horse is afraid, I agree, pushing him might create more problems than it solves. That is assuming that he isn't just uncertain but actually trying to escape what he feels truly frightened of, and the level of the 'push' which I can only assume so of course different horses and different scenarios equals different results.
I would back up to in hand with this horse and put my boots on so I could lead him thro puddles. The larger the better because we don't want it to be just an obstacle he can jump. You might have to stop at a distance at first (where ever he can get to with out becoming stressed. Stop wait and ask for one forward step if thats all he can calmly give you. Once I can lead him in (don't quit no matter how long it takes until you at least have one foot firmly in the puddle and not leaping away.) then I would give him a treat or a scratch and a "Goood boy" . Lesson 2 would be a repeat of one only I would insist on just a bit more compliance, both feet in the water for example, then again praise and go. There could be many days of lesson one before we got to lesson 2 but always trying to add just a bit more and go a bit deeper. I would not just lead him thro the water but always pause in the middle for praise and, if you use them, a treat. Never hurrying to the other side. Use every kind of water obstacle you can find and work in hand until he is non reactive. Then harness him and ground drive, repeating the steps until he will walk into the middle of the water and stand quietly. Change it up by turning around and going out in different places so he doesn't just cross but walks in the water whenever possible once he starts to relax about it. Finally rehitch and drive him thro the water again accepting baby steps from him until he relaxes again. Take as much time as he needs and as many days but never accept less than a solid touch of the water. You might find that a second person ( a header of sorts) will be helpful when you first go back to hitched driving. This person can help him when you forst ask him to stand in the water and give him the praise (treat?) that tells him water is a good place to be. He might have days where he seems to regress but just keep at it until water is his friend and he doesn't feel he needs to avoid it. I think with most horses this is a sign they aren't entirely confidant in the driver/rider/handler. Once you are able to overcome his natural resistance to entering water you will have come a long way towards gaining a solid trusting driving horse.
First, if your horse is afraid, I agree, pushing him might create more problems than it solves. That is assuming that he isn't just uncertain but actually trying to escape what he feels truly frightened of, and the level of the 'push' which I can only assume so of course different horses and different scenarios equals different results.
I would back up to in hand with this horse and put my boots on so I could lead him thro puddles. The larger the better because we don't want it to be just an obstacle he can jump. You might have to stop at a distance at first (where ever he can get to with out becoming stressed. Stop wait and ask for one forward step if thats all he can calmly give you. Once I can lead him in (don't quit no matter how long it takes until you at least have one foot firmly in the puddle and not leaping away.) then I would give him a treat or a scratch and a "Goood boy" . Lesson 2 would be a repeat of one only I would insist on just a bit more compliance, both feet in the water for example, then again praise and go. There could be many days of lesson one before we got to lesson 2 but always trying to add just a bit more and go a bit deeper. I would not just lead him thro the water but always pause in the middle for praise and, if you use them, a treat. Never hurrying to the other side. Use every kind of water obstacle you can find and work in hand until he is non reactive. Then harness him and ground drive, repeating the steps until he will walk into the middle of the water and stand quietly. Change it up by turning around and going out in different places so he doesn't just cross but walks in the water whenever possible once he starts to relax about it. Finally rehitch and drive him thro the water again accepting baby steps from him until he relaxes again. Take as much time as he needs and as many days but never accept less than a solid touch of the water. You might find that a second person ( a header of sorts) will be helpful when you first go back to hitched driving. This person can help him when you forst ask him to stand in the water and give him the praise (treat?) that tells him water is a good place to be. He might have days where he seems to regress but just keep at it until water is his friend and he doesn't feel he needs to avoid it. I think with most horses this is a sign they aren't entirely confidant in the driver/rider/handler. Once you are able to overcome his natural resistance to entering water you will have come a long way towards gaining a solid trusting driving horse.
Thanks for the advice so far, I wanted to get some different opinions that might click a light bulb on for me. The first time we ponied him through and he was in a little bit of a panic but didn't run the other cart over then the second time I jumped out and lead him by hand and he was just shaking like a leaf. I actually took my foot and splashed at the water and he eventually stuck his nose down and realizing it was water started to drink, which was funny to me. I then got in the cart and with the breeching on I actually shoved with my hips and bumped him and we walked calmly through; there was no panic mode or rushing either.
The huge puddle ordeal we went through on sunday I think because they were a muddy brown vs a clear stream so I think that just freaked him out. He seems to be very willing to follow me and I know he has a good level of trust in me but I think sometimes his fear overwhelms him (seems to be a very emotional horse period)
The huge puddle ordeal we went through on sunday I think because they were a muddy brown vs a clear stream so I think that just freaked him out. He seems to be very willing to follow me and I know he has a good level of trust in me but I think sometimes his fear overwhelms him (seems to be a very emotional horse period)
I think water looks like a chasm to them. It could be a question of trust and confidence. He is thinking for himself, not trusting that you ask him to go somewhere unsafe. That is why you will have to do different water obstacles; each will look like a different chasm.
It is a pain but I have unhitched and led mine through water in good shoes when he refused water. Back and forth until he went through willingly. Then rehitched and drove through. Sure adds a lot of time and stress to a simple drive!
I went through this backing thing with mine about cows. Be careful forcing him past his pressure point as he may become a bolter.
It is a pain but I have unhitched and led mine through water in good shoes when he refused water. Back and forth until he went through willingly. Then rehitched and drove through. Sure adds a lot of time and stress to a simple drive!
I went through this backing thing with mine about cows. Be careful forcing him past his pressure point as he may become a bolter.
I have caught him multiple times when he has done the butt scoot in wanting to bolt; he has done that from the start with anything that he is not comfortable with. People have said over and over to back to ground driving but the thing with him is, you can tie or drag anything behind this horse ground driving you will never get a reaction. Something to do with the harness + cart + sounds (etc) his mind cannot handle it. But once he realizes something he acts like he has done it since he was born. Has he gotten better over a year and a half, yes but its been an extremely slow process. After a year and a half I can harness him up into a cart and get in and out without anyone's assistance finally.
He has bolted once in the cart but it was a combo of things that led into that happening so I am not blaming him solely for doing that. He flipped the cart, I unharnessed him, re-harnessed him and put him back in the cart and went on our way with no problem or reoccurrence.
This winter I am going to stick him in the bigger round pen that has been built that can accommodate a cart hitched and work on throwing things under his feet, across him, shaking the cart as he moves etc. Worst case I send him off to the Amish that broke my gelding, who is night and day to my stallion, because their farm has so much to look at and "scare" a horse in a harness.
He has bolted once in the cart but it was a combo of things that led into that happening so I am not blaming him solely for doing that. He flipped the cart, I unharnessed him, re-harnessed him and put him back in the cart and went on our way with no problem or reoccurrence.
This winter I am going to stick him in the bigger round pen that has been built that can accommodate a cart hitched and work on throwing things under his feet, across him, shaking the cart as he moves etc. Worst case I send him off to the Amish that broke my gelding, who is night and day to my stallion, because their farm has so much to look at and "scare" a horse in a harness.
paintponylvr
Well-Known Member
I think your last post is on track and should help a lot.
So many things happen (and can go wrong) in water "obstacles" - not just while driving either. The backup thing - well - the only thing I can say is to keep working on him until a touch of your whip causes any backing (good, asked for or "mindless") to stop and get at least a stand and then hopefully will step out or forward when asked again. Then main thing is to get the "mindless" backing stopped - preferably before you back into something or jack up your cart.
A couple of mine when through this - both were affected when turning to the left in shafts. They'd both (2 years apart) would all of a sudden act like they'd been attacked by the shaft when they were asked to turn to the left and they'd throw their heads and then do a combo of leaping up/down (partial rearing) and backing - jamming themselves in a "curve" in the shafts but moving their bodies and the cart to the right. With both ponies, it took many times of having a header take a hold of them and lead them thru the curve/turn to the left and forward. Neither one ever went thru this while ground driving or while pulling a drag (no shafts).
The one mare, long after I thought we'd gotten past this as a single, suddenly did it while hitched as a pair out on a trail drive. I DID have a friend with me (thank goodness) - because we ended up needing help. When Koalah started her jam, back and leap to the right (she was on the left side of the pair) - she pushed her partner with her as well as her foal who was also attached to her. BUT - when she pushed them all to the right while trying to back up - we left the clear running water of the stream that was on a "packed" & graveled fording spot and literally "fell" off of the trail into ... a black hole. Then, off balance and still leaping around, the fore cart I was driving had a wheel jammed up against a large tree stump that was also in that "black hole". The mares finally quieted down - trembling and big eyed. Koalah was actually mired up to her elbows in front, her pendulous belly below the water line and her hocks behind. I, too, remember being "big eyed" with shock and maybe even a bit of fear as well (had NO IDEA what was in that muck and if the girls' legs that were heavily mired were OK and OMG - what about snakes??). That cart was well over 200 lbs and was off balance/off kilter tilted sideways and also mired down on the right side... The only reason the girls had come to a stop and were now mired - the cart wouldn't go anywhere. Couldn't go backwards anymore, tilted and stuck...
Once I took a deep breath, I tied the lines to both mares snugly back to the bar at the front of the cart and scrambled off the cart onto the packed area of the water fording. I was able to reach the filly's lead and untie her - she was the least mired and I was able to turn her head to me and encourage her to step back up to the packed path in shallow, now not so clear, water. Led her out of the water and tied her to a tree in front of the pair and on a dry spot of the path. By now, Vicki also has her pair turned around, stopped and tied to a tree (together). and she joins me and is wondering (aloud) how we are going to get this mess worked out... I don't remember anymore the exact order - think I got back into the cart and leaned way over the front to the girls butts and unhooked the tie hooking their haunches together. Then unhitched the farm traces, too. Then out of the cart and to the front of them... Seem to recall only having one lead rope - don't know why- that is highly unusual. Koalah lets out a groan at this point and completely lays down (still hooked as a team by the driving lines and at the front of the tongue to her collar and Bit fights against the drag - not wanting to go down and scrambles about. I wait (I think?) - then go in front of them (UGH!!) and unhook both of them from the tongue - then undid the lines hooking Bit's bridle - letting the snaps slide clear. Think Vicki tossed a lead to me and I hooked it to her halter and we turned to the right - back and around - to firm ground. Bit is out - though trembling. I see no blood, rips or tears, she's moving solid and square - not limping. She is also tied up - to a tree that is on the backside of the water (didn't occur to us that that was WRONG place to be!!).
Then back to Koalah. She's no longer attached to the tongue and the lines are loose (?don't remember how - they ARE still tied to the cart)... She is still laying down - I don't know if her legs are caught in a branch, log or hole - had she been bitten by something??. Honestly - part of my mind was slavvering and screaming. I wanted nothing to do with the muck that she was mired down in but I knew that we didn't have a choice - I wanted/needed her out of that "hole". My cell phone had no service - so help wasn't coming & we were still on our own. I must have braved the muck - 'cuz I remember going to her RIGHT side, feeling down the right leg and lifting/pulling it free of the mud. Took some time to move around to the front of her and thank goodness she didn't struggle then 'cuz if she'd have hit me - I'd have broken as I was fighting the sucking mud now, too! Undid the lines and tossed them back to the cart. Kept moving to the left in front of her and got her left fore leg free and yelled/slapped her on the neck and she was struggling up/out of the sucking mess (and now it stinks to high kingdom come too!) got her up on the "clearer" fording spot and she splash around funny for a moment or two - then walked out normally. She drops her head down to the ground - her sides are heaving but she doesn't appear injured. Just stress exhaustion and struggling. A lot of the mud on them ran off when led them thru the water and out. She is tied up with Bell.
The cart - was an issue. It is heavy and inanimate. We ended up turning the foal loose & tying Bit and Koalah with the same lead rope - so that we could use the two together to help pull the cart out... We used a small tree that was dead next to the trail as a wedge to push on the cart's right wheel - to get it unmired and uncaught where it was hung up on the stump. I know that afterwords, vicki was ready to kill me for having the larger/heavier cart (haflinger sized) and we were both soaked in sweat, water and slimy, stinky MUD with our own sides heaving with exertion. It wasn't until after i re-hitched the mares that I realized that we still had to go thru/cross the ford - thru water that was not yet running clear. OMG - what was I thinking (O, that's right - wasn't!).
Here is a pic - after re-hitching them
The cart/tongue doesn't even look muddy! Trust me, it was - took forever to get it clean when I got home.
Guess what? Koalah DID NOT get "silly" again - she dropped her head, sniffed at the water and then both her and Bit went on thru. Vicki untied her pair and we slowly finished out our drive (and were able to shorten it some by taking a different path - going back to trailers sooner). The mares were still kinda "draggy" when we got home - I know that I gave them both full, soapy baths (they smelled BAD - so did I). I didn't feed them right away - instead turning them out to pasture while I went in and showered the muck off of me and redressed in dry clothes (had to wear slip on shoes - nasty paddock boots went into washer - took several days to finally dry out).
I did go back to ground driving Koalah - both single and as a pair. But never had a problem with that again. So back to hitching - both single and pair - never again did she do that "back up/ rear/swing to the right" thing...
I don't recommend this type of training if it can be avoided - but it worked in this situation :-
So... I do recommend following Marsha's advice. It does work (I've done that again and again, too).
LOVED how you handled your guy at the driving event where the woman was "crazy"... Good for you!
So many things happen (and can go wrong) in water "obstacles" - not just while driving either. The backup thing - well - the only thing I can say is to keep working on him until a touch of your whip causes any backing (good, asked for or "mindless") to stop and get at least a stand and then hopefully will step out or forward when asked again. Then main thing is to get the "mindless" backing stopped - preferably before you back into something or jack up your cart.
A couple of mine when through this - both were affected when turning to the left in shafts. They'd both (2 years apart) would all of a sudden act like they'd been attacked by the shaft when they were asked to turn to the left and they'd throw their heads and then do a combo of leaping up/down (partial rearing) and backing - jamming themselves in a "curve" in the shafts but moving their bodies and the cart to the right. With both ponies, it took many times of having a header take a hold of them and lead them thru the curve/turn to the left and forward. Neither one ever went thru this while ground driving or while pulling a drag (no shafts).
The one mare, long after I thought we'd gotten past this as a single, suddenly did it while hitched as a pair out on a trail drive. I DID have a friend with me (thank goodness) - because we ended up needing help. When Koalah started her jam, back and leap to the right (she was on the left side of the pair) - she pushed her partner with her as well as her foal who was also attached to her. BUT - when she pushed them all to the right while trying to back up - we left the clear running water of the stream that was on a "packed" & graveled fording spot and literally "fell" off of the trail into ... a black hole. Then, off balance and still leaping around, the fore cart I was driving had a wheel jammed up against a large tree stump that was also in that "black hole". The mares finally quieted down - trembling and big eyed. Koalah was actually mired up to her elbows in front, her pendulous belly below the water line and her hocks behind. I, too, remember being "big eyed" with shock and maybe even a bit of fear as well (had NO IDEA what was in that muck and if the girls' legs that were heavily mired were OK and OMG - what about snakes??). That cart was well over 200 lbs and was off balance/off kilter tilted sideways and also mired down on the right side... The only reason the girls had come to a stop and were now mired - the cart wouldn't go anywhere. Couldn't go backwards anymore, tilted and stuck...
Once I took a deep breath, I tied the lines to both mares snugly back to the bar at the front of the cart and scrambled off the cart onto the packed area of the water fording. I was able to reach the filly's lead and untie her - she was the least mired and I was able to turn her head to me and encourage her to step back up to the packed path in shallow, now not so clear, water. Led her out of the water and tied her to a tree in front of the pair and on a dry spot of the path. By now, Vicki also has her pair turned around, stopped and tied to a tree (together). and she joins me and is wondering (aloud) how we are going to get this mess worked out... I don't remember anymore the exact order - think I got back into the cart and leaned way over the front to the girls butts and unhooked the tie hooking their haunches together. Then unhitched the farm traces, too. Then out of the cart and to the front of them... Seem to recall only having one lead rope - don't know why- that is highly unusual. Koalah lets out a groan at this point and completely lays down (still hooked as a team by the driving lines and at the front of the tongue to her collar and Bit fights against the drag - not wanting to go down and scrambles about. I wait (I think?) - then go in front of them (UGH!!) and unhook both of them from the tongue - then undid the lines hooking Bit's bridle - letting the snaps slide clear. Think Vicki tossed a lead to me and I hooked it to her halter and we turned to the right - back and around - to firm ground. Bit is out - though trembling. I see no blood, rips or tears, she's moving solid and square - not limping. She is also tied up - to a tree that is on the backside of the water (didn't occur to us that that was WRONG place to be!!).
Then back to Koalah. She's no longer attached to the tongue and the lines are loose (?don't remember how - they ARE still tied to the cart)... She is still laying down - I don't know if her legs are caught in a branch, log or hole - had she been bitten by something??. Honestly - part of my mind was slavvering and screaming. I wanted nothing to do with the muck that she was mired down in but I knew that we didn't have a choice - I wanted/needed her out of that "hole". My cell phone had no service - so help wasn't coming & we were still on our own. I must have braved the muck - 'cuz I remember going to her RIGHT side, feeling down the right leg and lifting/pulling it free of the mud. Took some time to move around to the front of her and thank goodness she didn't struggle then 'cuz if she'd have hit me - I'd have broken as I was fighting the sucking mud now, too! Undid the lines and tossed them back to the cart. Kept moving to the left in front of her and got her left fore leg free and yelled/slapped her on the neck and she was struggling up/out of the sucking mess (and now it stinks to high kingdom come too!) got her up on the "clearer" fording spot and she splash around funny for a moment or two - then walked out normally. She drops her head down to the ground - her sides are heaving but she doesn't appear injured. Just stress exhaustion and struggling. A lot of the mud on them ran off when led them thru the water and out. She is tied up with Bell.
The cart - was an issue. It is heavy and inanimate. We ended up turning the foal loose & tying Bit and Koalah with the same lead rope - so that we could use the two together to help pull the cart out... We used a small tree that was dead next to the trail as a wedge to push on the cart's right wheel - to get it unmired and uncaught where it was hung up on the stump. I know that afterwords, vicki was ready to kill me for having the larger/heavier cart (haflinger sized) and we were both soaked in sweat, water and slimy, stinky MUD with our own sides heaving with exertion. It wasn't until after i re-hitched the mares that I realized that we still had to go thru/cross the ford - thru water that was not yet running clear. OMG - what was I thinking (O, that's right - wasn't!).
Here is a pic - after re-hitching them
The cart/tongue doesn't even look muddy! Trust me, it was - took forever to get it clean when I got home.
Guess what? Koalah DID NOT get "silly" again - she dropped her head, sniffed at the water and then both her and Bit went on thru. Vicki untied her pair and we slowly finished out our drive (and were able to shorten it some by taking a different path - going back to trailers sooner). The mares were still kinda "draggy" when we got home - I know that I gave them both full, soapy baths (they smelled BAD - so did I). I didn't feed them right away - instead turning them out to pasture while I went in and showered the muck off of me and redressed in dry clothes (had to wear slip on shoes - nasty paddock boots went into washer - took several days to finally dry out).
I did go back to ground driving Koalah - both single and as a pair. But never had a problem with that again. So back to hitching - both single and pair - never again did she do that "back up/ rear/swing to the right" thing...
I don't recommend this type of training if it can be avoided - but it worked in this situation :-
So... I do recommend following Marsha's advice. It does work (I've done that again and again, too).
LOVED how you handled your guy at the driving event where the woman was "crazy"... Good for you!
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Thanks for your input it is greatly appreciated. Over the weekend I put my stallion in full harness and hung plastic bags off him with stuff, even one off his crupper that had a lead rope in it so it would hover above the ground but bang him on the legs and even in between. Tell me why he didn't even take off, he actually was trying to slow down o.0'. If he got to excited I could say easy or woah and I would get a slower pace or a halt.
I also added a combo of throwing a securely tied back with a towel in it at the ground so it would hit his legs as he went around and I think it phased him once and that was it.
After all that was done I tied him up and took different sounding bags and rattled them heading his head and let them touch him all over until he stopped flinching. I think I am getting no reaction because it is me and he trusts that no matter what I do nothing will "kill" him when I am doing it.
My next step as stated before will be to get him in the cart and doing the same to him then but with long lines in a large round pen. If I get no reactions at home, Im just going to have to suck it up and do more away from the farm on trails with my friend to get him desensitized.
I also added a combo of throwing a securely tied back with a towel in it at the ground so it would hit his legs as he went around and I think it phased him once and that was it.
After all that was done I tied him up and took different sounding bags and rattled them heading his head and let them touch him all over until he stopped flinching. I think I am getting no reaction because it is me and he trusts that no matter what I do nothing will "kill" him when I am doing it.
My next step as stated before will be to get him in the cart and doing the same to him then but with long lines in a large round pen. If I get no reactions at home, Im just going to have to suck it up and do more away from the farm on trails with my friend to get him desensitized.
Sounds like you have a solid plan. Keep us posted.
Will do definitely, its just frustrating because he is such a nice boy and a really good mover in the cart, I want him to be able to enjoy this new job of his and not be so on edge and afraid because there is nothing to worry about.
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