Arabian "Type" Miniatures

[circlesinthesand]

Personally, I am not a fan of the "arabian" style miniatures.

I like a nice, fine, conformed animal but I would rather have a performance bred mini with some legs than a Arabian style mini with a neck that resembles a serpents. (My opinion)

I don't see the use of an arabian style miniatures. Arabians (halter) are becoming animals for the only use of prancing around and setting up. No riding or whatever. We as miniature horse enthusiasts try daily to fight the question, "What can you do with a miniature?" Why would we want to base our ponies off a horse that has no use other than looking "pretty"?

If I ever get into breeding I don't want to breed such animals. I want miniatures that can jump and pull a cart; not stand their and lift its head it for me in the ring.

This would be me. Here's my two cents, FWIW, and this might be a little scattered because I'm working this morning and trying to type at the same time

I believe in performance over looks. The form should match the function. Trying to stuff a horse that only looks pretty into a job it can't do never works out well. Things fall apart somewhere.

I'm a stock horse gal, Having been immersed in performance horses for years (since I was a very young child,) Arabian style doesn't mean much to me in terms of performance as when I look at an Arab in the halter sense all I see is the prancy type that I used to see at 4H shows and still see in those over done pictures of a stretched out body with a wild eyed look. Horses that kids couldn't handle or if they were sane enough to handle, they became lunatics in the ring when someone was popping whips at them to get them to stretch their neck. Don't get me wrong I LIKE a clean thin neck and a small well shaped face as good as any other. They're beautiful creatures, elegant, refined, but for a riding horse halter type Arabians have never done it for me. The Arabians I do like tend to be very stocky in terms of Arabians, horses that can hold up under pressure and hold their riders without problems. Still lighter boned than most nice QH's but not at all this thin boned flighty creatures the halter people prefer. For the record I'm not wild about halter QH's either. My animals are all performance animals, there's not a drop of halter anywhere in them.... They'd be laughed at in most halter competitions BUT their form matches their function!! and they do their function very well.

Sooooo, when I picked out my mini after years of window shopping, I went with the one that looked more like my horses because this is what I know can perform. The face is often just a bonus. You don't ride (or drive) the head! But I do like a cute face so I looked for what I like, paying paticular attention to the eye because I like a kind soft eye. In fact my little guy has the same look in his eye as my calmer gelding. If I can get a good pic of little guy's face I'll post to compare, in fact I have a great shot of my QH at about the same age that I'll try to match. Their faces are very similar. But if you look at my QH, he might have a better looking head than some Arabians, it's short, slightly dishy (not overly so) and just really attractive and cute.

Are either of them truly Arabian type because their face is dishy? no not really. My QH certainly is not, he is ALL QH. But neither is the little guy a stock horse type at all. I will admit my little guy has more of a flat rump than my QH, and in QH we WANT long sloping hips, this is where the burst of powerful speed in the 1/4 mile and all the power to turn on a calf etc. comes from but I recognize that I'll probably never find that in a mini. And do I really want or need it? They'll be pulling horses, So I guess what I'm saying, in my limited experience and window shopping, I have yet to see a mini fit a 'stock horse' profile either. They all look slightly arab-y to me, OR like a fat little pony, lol. I admit I am more attracted to what ya'll are calling the 'arabian' types in that they're lighter and look like they can move well but I don't want it so light that it can't pull. I want a cart horse, I want it to be able to trot on and hold some endurance (like a lighter boned arabian,) but at the same time it needs to have the strength and power to pull (like a draft.) In drafts those bigger necks help with pulling but they also go slow and plod along without alot of endurance, this is not what I really want in a mini either. So a balance is made so that form matches function...'type' doesn't matter one little bit to me. FUNCTION does! A good horse is a good horse.

 

[tagalong]

I have to point out that it takes more than legs to make a performance horse. It takes more than substance to make a performance horse. There is absolutely no reason why a refined horse with a long, never-needs-sweating-to-look-good-in-a-halter-class neck can't have everything else it takes to make a good performance horse.

This ^. That more refined neck enables the horse to use it better - far more flexible than a shorter, thicker neck.

And I could name (but won't) some Grand Champion Driving horses who were a compete disaster conformation-wise. Not so important if for a gelding but crucial for a stallion or mare who may be used for breeding.

I have yet to see any mini in any of the magazines that have as extreme a dish as adults as some Arabians do....

. But then, I also feel there is more Icelandic in them than we hear about.

I have seen very little in minis in the past 20 years that would even hint at Icelandic influence (and I have been involved in Icelandics for over 20 years). Size issues would preclude that. No need for a heavier-boned, taller, gaited "pony" to be part of the recipe.

 

[disneyhorse]

What I don't get is all the people clamoring for stock horse type when they want a mini to drive.

Horses bred for carriage driving (not pulling a plow, like a draft horse) are NOT stock type. They are fancy, high-headed, high-stepping horses. Think Friesian, Hackney horse, etc...

Anyway...

There is no way to argue type because everyone has a different aesthetic. A wispy hackney pony looks just as good under harness in a park class as a stocky quarter horse does in a western pleasure driving class. The person breeding the quarter horse will turn up their nose at the "flighty frail-looking" hackney and the person breeding the hackney may in turn shake their head at the "shuffling muscle-bound" quarter horse. Who knows?

Perhaps a division for halter animals is the way to go, but talking down on horses or ponies is not the way to go. A beautiful animal is always a animal of quality.

 

[minihingstar]

I think my boy have the "arabian look", not an extreme one, but still

 

[ruffian]

I wonder how this would go if you had 3 purebred Arabians, one Russian, one Polish, and One Egyptian bred. Each are Arabians, but there are very significant differences. in my opinion the term "arabian type" miniature was started when folks starting going for a more refined look over trying to breed the smallest horse possible. If I use that as my definition of "arabian" type, all 3 would be considered that type. I think they are all nice, and you should just be proud that you have such lovely horses.

 

[Capall Beag IRL]

this is a yearling filly that i have bred, no neck sweating or conditioning - just play with her.

my daughter has put some of these pics on facebook and lots of people rang and emaile me to ask about her.

again not everyone looks for the same things in a horse and thats what makes it so great.

 

[Jill]

I also don't know why some people think it takes a stocky horse to drive. What I said earlier, of course, is how I feel -- I like them refined and really pretty but with butts and chests to DO something. Not so refined a stiff wind could know them down

Some of the stock horses, stubby thick necked, etc., that are idea in some eyes to my way of thinking just could not ever be supple in harness. I like an elegant horse, versatitle horse and there are a lot of those out there to be enjoyed. There are also a lot of blocky, stocky...

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Thats why AMHR has the western class .

The stockier type minis do very well in the western class because of how they are built, a lot like their bigger counterpart. These minis had no place to show and created this class and has been a huge success and is almost as big as the CPD at Nationals. I think thats why more of your pleasure and saddle type horses do so well in the country and pleasure classes because they are built to MOVE!

There are so many types when it comes to the minis. I think they have divided these driving classes now very well and as long as judges understand the difference I think AMHR has it right. It can happen the same way for halter and perhaps not focus so much on height but have the different type halter classes. There were so many in the draft type halter class at the one show I went too I think it can really fill these classes up especially at Nationals.

 

[Jill]

I don't know... I guess so many people see things with different eyes. A lot of times what I see described as a stocky mini is to my eyes coarse and blocky. We have a National champion at halter / halter hall of famer beautiful stallion who isn't stocky and sires leggy refined A size foals. He is also Res. National Grand at WCP.

ETA pictures of "Destiny" the stallion I've referred to, and some of his daughters. This can probably "say" what I meant better than my words...

Erica's Echos of My Destiny HOF, National Champion (halter) & Res. National Grand Champion (driving)... beautifully refined, not stocky, but built to DO:

 

[Kaitlyn]

As a fresh set of eyes in the mini world, I feel like this is one of the reasons that minis should perhaps have a more definitive breed standard (or standards, if the desire was to have several 'types' of minis, such as refined vs stocky). I feel as if simply limiting a mini to height restrictions leaves way too much room for personal preference and fads-- the desire for what is in style at the moment, instead of aiming towards a standard body type. I don't see how it is fair to judge one style of mini against another without bias. Kind of like if the AKC were to judge all dogs against each other with no breed standards-- one judge may like the short, fluffy dog, while another might like the tall, sleek one. Just my two cents.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

And I prefer one with bone and substance and not the long legged refined minis so not everyone likes the same thing. Too me what you describe Jill is more of the draft type and I personally don't care for them either even tho I have one who I would consider draft type I still like him but won't breed for them, but others may, and thats ok.

If we pick one particular type of standard you will be limiting a lot of horses but I agree that the breed is too focused on height and should look more at type. I don't see why we can't have Pleasure/Saddle type Under and Over class, and Stock/Hunter type Under and Over, and Draft type Under and Over. A lot similar like the PtHA does with full size outcross breeds by type. It also wouldn't be adding a whole bunch of extra classes if you take away the height classes. It gives a fair chance to those who breed for what they like and be able to show in halter classes and go for quality to the type they like. I think it would also help with the AMHR/ASPC Miniature Shetland debates and gives them a place to go along with the "straight" or "foundation" miniatures, or however you want to call them that don't have the Shetland blood or look. Is it the perfect fix no, but I think personally its a good one. I know people would be against it and thats ok, and I know people were against the WCPD class and look how huge that class is now.

All I can say is without the WCPD class I probably wouldn't be showing anymore, or not be involved with AMHR. I love to drive but my horses could not compete in CPD anymore. My "draft" type mini who did very well in CPD and Roadster his first year judges wouldn't even look at him the next year. So we'll see how he does in Western. If this class could become a huge success I don't see how taking a second look at the halter classes and see how we can bring exhibitors back out and support the halter classes and show their mini again in halter can't hurt. I liked showing my draft type mini at the show in halter and I think he placed well considering he wasn't in shape, braided or clipped, I wish I could show him in halter again but 90% of the judges won't use him because he is not the type for halter.

 

[circlesinthesand]

I also don't know why some people think it takes a stocky horse to drive. What I said earlier, of course, is how I feel -- I like them refined and really pretty but with butts and chests to DO something. Not so refined a stiff wind could know them down

Some of the stock horses, stubby thick necked, etc., that are idea in some eyes to my way of thinking just could not ever be supple in harness. I like an elegant horse, versatitle horse and there are a lot of those out there to be enjoyed. There are also a lot of blocky, stocky...

Thats why AMHR has the western class .

The stockier type minis do very well in the western class because of how they are built, a lot like their bigger counterpart. These minis had no place to show and created this class and has been a huge success and is almost as big as the CPD at Nationals. I think thats why more of your pleasure and saddle type horses do so well in the country and pleasure classes because they are built to MOVE!

There are so many types when it comes to the minis. I think they have divided these driving classes now very well and as long as judges understand the difference I think AMHR has it right. It can happen the same way for halter and perhaps not focus so much on height but have the different type halter classes. There were so many in the draft type halter class at the one show I went too I think it can really fill these classes up especially at Nationals.

I am sorry, I know I'm new to this and I really don't know all that much about the different mini classes and what is out there winning but I don't know where people get the idea that a standard stock horse has a big thick neck or isn't built to move? this just isn't the case. Maybe it's a percieved impression from all the awful things they've done to halter horses in the past 20-30 years but while I might not know enough about mini's but I DO know stock horses.

Does this look like a thick and coarse neck?

or this?

or even this?

The pally's neck in that pic actually looks worse than she is, she had a pencil thin neck, thinner than her dam's (the sorrel pictured with her) and I'll put any one of those horses up in tests of speed, quickness, flexibility and athletic ability. They've certainly been enough to stop a few hundred cows and still be able to pull a buggy on any given Sunday. Only one of those picture isn't broke to cart, mostly because I didn't want to chance hurting him when he's out there doing well in reining. Those are all well bred working qh's. Stock horses. Real life honest ranch horses, and none of them have ever been sweated a day in their lives and I know this because all but one of them was raised here from birth and the one mare that didn't came with her beautiful neck and still maintains it to this day. In fact every one of those pics were taken when the horse was FAT and out of shape. Their necks looked even better when they were being worked.

This one, however, will pull your house down and probably take the foundation with her as she trots away

JMO but I'd hate to see coarse and chunky lumped into a 'stock horse' category. Give me that dun mare with her son's

or this colt's face

and I've got MY ideal horse, be it mini or not.

 

[Jill]

Hi, Circles --

That's a little why earlier I said maybe "if" we were going to have different catagories of type (for shows?) (which btw, I do not actually favor), then there's a difference in my opinion between stock type and draft type -- but often times people describe a mini that fits one word in my eyes as the other. Also coming from a big horse background, I also have an image in my mind's eye of the "real" examples minis are often compared to, but sometimes shouldn't be.

There are a lot of course, stub necked, blocky minis that others would call "stock type". I hear / see that repeatedly. I'd say draft or something else (not breeding or halter quality for starters, but that's my perception).

To show what I think of as a stock type mini, this is a gelding of ours and I think he looks a lot like a miniature QH or maybe Morgan. He is not the arabian type, but I still see beauty in him and refinement. I think he'd make a very nice driving horse. While he is not the type I breed for, I think he's awesome inside and out and his career show wins are pretty hard to top... He is a 9x National Champion / Reserve National Champion in halter, has 20x Grand Champion, and Halter HOF with a hundred + points to spare. Stock, yes I'd say so. Draft, not to my eyes.

I can't really hold out an example of draft type as we do not have one. But when I say it, I'm picturing some horses and some of them "drive" and man, I don't know how they could bend, etc... But, that's why we all have our own horses to enjoy and goals to persue

So, here's the horse I did mention, Tibbs Sundowner HOF. Sunny is just such a GOOD boy. I never have had such a hooved teddy bear and all you have to do to make him show is take up his halter and stand up straight beside him. Then he just turns it on, squares up and shows himself.

 

[disneyhorse]

The American draft horses winning today look like this:

http://www.utopiapercherons.com/images/Ice/Icepick2.jpg

So the heavy, short legged draft horses for plowing are not really a halter animal. I think you would be doing an ignorant stereotype to call a mini draft type, when what national-show-quality draft breeders are seeking upheaded, long-legged horses with a lot of motion.

Isn't that also what mini people at nationals are striving for?

The Percheron pictured is a whole lot more flashy than what people unfamiliar with show draft horses picture, and is more upheaded with longer leg and action than many minis are.

A heavy pulling horse just won't be shown at Percheron congress in halter, does that mean that the Percheron association should make halter divisions of "farm style", "riding style" and "modern style"?

As breeds evolve and improve and develop, breeds from mini to draft, there will always be those who prefer something that isn't what the Grand Champions are. That's just fine! Most breeds have a variety of classes to entice a wide variety of exhibitors and enthusiasts.

The breed will move forward.

Andrea

The American draft horses winning today look like this:

http://www.utopiapercherons.com/images/Ice/Icepick2.jpg

So the heavy, short legged draft horses for plowing are not really a halter animal. I think you would be doing an ignorant stereotype to call a mini draft type, when what national-show-quality draft breeders are seeking upheaded, long-legged horses with a lot of motion.

Isn't that also what mini people at nationals are striving for?

The Percheron pictured is a whole lot more flashy than what people unfamiliar with show draft horses picture, and is more upheaded with longer leg and action than many minis are.

A heavy pulling horse just won't be shown at Percheron congress in halter, does that mean that the Percheron association should make halter divisions of "farm style", "riding style" and "modern style"?

As breeds evolve and improve and develop, breeds from mini to draft, there will always be those who prefer something that isn't what the Grand Champions are. That's just fine! Most breeds have a variety of classes to entice a wide variety of exhibitors and enthusiasts.

The breed will move forward.

Andrea

 

[paintponylvr]

Funny what you find when you go out and start going thru past pages of this forum!

As to the OPs ? - I can't decide which of the 3 would be most araby in appearance. Why? Because I haven't seen any one type of Arabian. I currently have 4 purebred arabians, all on our website, and though all are related with some similar bloodlines each has something a little different in their pedigrees AND a whole lot of difference in their appearances, maintenance and manageability. I know that of the 3, I prefer the whole package of the first mare - she is appealing to ME. And the crossed front legs make me smile - ....

With the first person that brought up draft type, I almost rolled off the couch laughing! Why? Because Blackdraft shows why! Right here in little "backwoods" North Carolina there is a HUGE discrepancy of Draft Horse afficiandos right now - and it has caused part of the rift that has created two different Draft Horse clubs/associations here. The owners of the Draft Horses that look like the winning Percheron above (and other breeds look just about the same these days - just different manes, colors and head shapes - OH MY!!) - would DIE before putting a collar and work harness on those horses and actually asking them to work in a dusty field fetlock or deeper in depth. Several owners actually have seperate horses - some for SHOW ONLY and others that are FIELD ONLY and then there's the PULLING TEAMS (stone boat competition horses ). AND in fact, those horses with the longer legs and higher action, lighter gaskin and forearm muscling and "prettier", longer necks - don't do nearly as well out in the field... They don't have the ability to move the equipment OR if they do with their teammates, they don't last as long to the work....It's not as easy for them to gear down and pull and continue to pull. Even when they are fit and muscled up to their capacity! I hear a lot of grumbling about the "modern changes" to the wonderful draft breeds and I have to make sure I don't laugh, LOL. Personally, I think the continued refinement of ALL breeds here in the states is just something we love to "monkey with"... and I no longer see any one type in ANY breed of horse...

In the minis' and Shetlands now - when someone says "Araby type" - I automatically think of the ones in the Halter ring first. When someone mentions "Quarter type" - I wonder - Halter, racing or Ranch/performance? And when one says "draft type" - I am now starting to put one of two types up there - the shorter, blockier type but with a clean throatlatch that can go work in a field all day (in mini size) and the not as blocky, but higher moving thicker based at the neck but upright type.. O, my head hurts with all this "typing"...

Andrea's statements at the bottom of her post - HIP HIP HOORAY!

On another note - I dropped off a filly with a fellow Shetland pony driver in Southern Pines yesterday. She took me by Bill Long's place. I didn't get to meet the man, I figure he was out working driving horses, but she showed me around his barn and I noticed my tastes have sooooo way changed in horse flesh! The two Norwegian Fjords - couldn't tell on one and the other most definitely a stallion - were drool worthy. Even 10 years ago, I would have took half a glance and just gone "...eeewwww, yuck, what can you do with that...?" but now - I see a smaller, compact all around horse (comfortable ride, decent drive and ability to plow/work as well) with easy manageability (temper & feed/care) that while not having the dishy face I used to live for, had a nice face with WIDE nostrils that could easily utilize the heavy, humid air to good capacity and a large, calm, eye that was amazing... a wash and wear type that I would willing put in my pastures anytime! I don't even know if they are classified as horses or ponies - doesn't matter... They definitely weren't as big or as massive as any Draft Horse breeds, but were much "more" than the stoutest QH or Arab I've ridden - none of which I'd consider for both driving and working besides riding.They were small enough in height to class as ponies (less than 14 hh) and all I know I wanted to take one out and both test ride and drive it!! (I haven't comfortably ridden in over a year and haven't wanted to - until yesterday).

 

[disneyhorse]

Ha ha thanks Paintponylover...

While the "modern halter type" draft horses may not work on a plow or make good meat animals like their ancestors, their flashy leggy tall builds do come from a "purpose"... To be fancy and eye-catching in front of a hitch wagon as advertising. Heinz Ketchup had Percheron hitches, Budweiser had Clydesdale hitches... And modern hitches like the Priefert percherons.

Plow horses aren't very flashy even though they can work all day in a field. And they don't catch a judges eye standing up in a halter ring.

I still think that there is no one answer to what a good "type" a mini should be. Yes, people who love quarter horses will want stock type minis. And those with a Saddlebred background will like a hackney type mini. One is not better than another. But the stock type mini may have an advantage in leadline, and the hackney type mini may have an advantage in park harness.

And when it comes to halter, the breed has evolved. Minis are a relatively "new" breed, and as a young breed we don't really know what the potential is. If breeders and exhibitors and judges are striving for something, that's the direction it will go. It's a big slow machine.

Andrea

 

[Chloe196]

Two beautiful minis.. same day.. full winter coat no haircuts.. muddy natural. Both so pretty in different ways. Both are rescue and no photoshopping here. One definitely looks more arabian in miniature.