AMHR Western Country Pleasure

[justagirl]

http://forums.horsecity.com/cgi-bin/bb/ult...c;f=20;t=000729

I saw this post on another Board . Does anyone know more about this 'western country pleasure' class??

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I believe its not going to be a rated class as of right now, and will introduce this class at Nationals, and anyone who wants to put it in their local shows. It's for people who feel they can't compete in country pleasure class with their country pleasure horse because the pleasure horses are getting into the country pleasure classes.

I'm defintelly interested in this class as well. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

 

[justagirl]

Well, I don't know much about the class, but sounds like it may be the class for Armani and me. He has little to no action and is very laid back and seems to be more comfortable driving with his 'nose out' a little.

We have done well in local C. P. classes previously, but it seems to me that more and more judges want to see more action from the C. P. horse and that's just something he doesn't have.

I'm anxious to learn more about this class.

 

[_minihorses4ever_]

I'm interested in this too. I saw the class in the Premium for the "Wild N Wooly" show coming up down here, which is also AMHA, not AMHR.

Here is the description of the class:

Western Pleasure Driving :We will use the AMHA rules for country pleasure driving except: The poll should be level with the withers. The horse shall be penalized if the head is carried behind the vertical, is excessively nosed out, the poll is below the withers, or exhibits lack of control by the exhibitor.

I hope this helps.

 

[justagirl]

Yep that helps alot.

The description you provided ... is that the official description that will be in the rulebook ??

I'm also curious about the type of cart preferred for this class.

Did anyone here go to the Convention and hear anything about this class ??

 

[_minihorses4ever_]

Yep that helps alot.

The description you provided ... is that the official description that will be in the rulebook ??

I'm also curious about the type of cart preferred for this class.

Did anyone here go to the Convention and hear anything about this class ??

I wish I could tell you, but I am not sure. I hope you are able to find out from another member though!

 

[Boinky]

Ok i'm sure this will not be a popular oppinion.. but here goes Ok no offense to anyone but i think when a horse is driven "western" with it's head level like paints and QH's (and lets face it many far below level) with the withers it looks very strung out, unbalanced and rather rediculous. Now i suppose if you want a "western" class so you can dress up in your duds and your horse can jog and lope and look the western part that's all fine and good..but i wouldn't call all CP horses "westerny" with their headset or anything. I wouldn't be against adding a class for that purpose alone.. but here my point of veiw on making it another CP class to level the playing field.... WHY add another class for the CP horses to "level the playing field" when the JUDGES are the ones that are disreguarding the rules of each class that ALREADY EXIST AND ALREADY HAVE WRITTEN STANDARDS OF HOW THE HORSES ARE SUPPOSED TO MOVE and not penilizing the action horses in CP??? the ONLY way i can see to level the playing field is to make the judges judge correctly period. I think judges just are not enforcing the WRITTEN rules and are judging what THEY LIKE no matter what the rules clearly state. I know that juding is a personal preference and oppion for the most part.. and if there is nothing in the book about how something is to be done..then by all means judge it as you please and see fit....but if the rulebook clearly states and the registry has seminars on how a horse is supposed to look..and they are placing just the opposite..then they are in the WRONG.. they themselves are breaking a rule and should be enforced and reprimanded somehow by the registry for blanant disreguard of the rules. No one apparently wants to enforce rules on any end of the spectrum be it measuring, judging, ect and if they "want to" there is always SOME excuse why not to and never do it.. make the rules but don't enforce them... then you start seeing problems like Pleasure horses winning the CP class when they have knee's up to their chin and making it hard for the true horse sof the class to win! If you don't enforce the rules.. more rules are only going to be broken all the way up the chain.....

course this is only my oppinion..i don't see any reason to not want shetland action and influence in our lines like many strictly mini people..but if they would ENFORCE the rules for the classes designated for the movement of these animals then there wouldn't be the problem of competeing against these horses that shoudlnt' be winning the classes to begin with.

 

[justagirl]

I personally take no offense to your post , and actually I agree that if the judges would judge the class according to the rules outlined in the rulebook, then there would be no need to add another CP class.

I recently had a conversation with a Judge who made the comment that "they liked to see more knee action in C P horses" . Well this blew me out of the water, afterall I've read where excessive knee action is to be penalized in a CP class. And what one may consider excessive knee action, another may view differently.

Afterall it is just a matter of opinion....and you know what they say about opinions.

Despite all of this I am excited about the new class and hope that true CP horses will not have to compete against those high stepping, hot Pleasure horses any longer.

 

[Boinky]

it's sad isn't it..for the most part i'd consider that a blatent disreguard for the rules..basically they are making their own rules. I know i've read that they've had several judges clinics recently to demonstrate the desired movement for each class in hopes of cleaning up the classes and making it clear as to what is to be looked for, and apparently it's still not sinking in. At nationals i could sit there and know which horses would win the class...... but they weren't for the most part the horses that SHOULD have won the class by the definition of the rules. Sure they might look more eye catching and pretty ...but they most definatly shouldn't have won or placed against those with the more flatter action. It's frustrating to know that you don't have a hope of doing well even in the classes you were ment to be in because the judges wont judge appropriately, which is what they are PAID to do.

I think this western class could be a great venue for those looking for other classes and other ways to express the avenues one can take with minis. The more i think about it, it really could open the door for those that breed stockier more QH/western built horses to promote their horses... it wouldn't be a BAD thing..i just don't see it helping at this point as far as evening out the playing field..the only way that will happen is if the judges are forced to abide by the rules (not to mention the rules we are all expected to follow as well).

 

[justagirl]

It's frustrating to know that you don't have a hope of doing well even in the classes you were ment to be in because the judges wont judge appropriately, which is what they are PAID to do.

Well this in part is why I won't be competeing in driving this year, unless the show offers W. C. P.

and will focus on other performance classes.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I think in reality this class will become another one everyone questions about who belongs in there.

I am not sure that itis about throwing the rules out the window as it is a preference. There is a difference between some lift with the extenstion and excessive knee action.

I also think JMHO that with the much more added influx of pony blood we will see the open pleasure classes really becoming more true to form (as it has been in the past couple of years) and those CP horses that could sneak up into pleasure no longer can do so as easily and they go back down into CP where they belong.

IN watching ADS shows where you can have 15 different breeds in the ring at the same time in the same class it was much easier for me to really understand how important build is in the way a horse moves and how many different types of horses can really all fit into the same catagory. It is just a preference as to which a judge likes better and that will of course vary for all.

 

[justagirl]

I am excited about this class and hope it is offered at shows. My stallion is a perfect match for it :aktion033: He is not fancy enough to show in CP classes and he does not have enough reach. I hope our local club ECMHC will consider adding this class to the spring fling.

:

Alison

Believe me Alison...I'm pushing to get this class added to the Spring Fling class list.

Lisa ~not to be flip, but if the Judge is judging a class and pinning it based on his/her preference and his/ her preference doesn't reflect what's written in the rulebook, then I'd say , yes, they are throwing the rules out the window, and why do we even have rules. If this is the way driving classes are to be judged, then why do we even have different divisions....why not just combine all driving classes and let the judge pick his/her favorites (that's sarcasm folks) .

And if Judges were consistently pinning classes based on the rulebook and NOT personal prefernece, it wouldn't be so hard to figure out which division your horse is best suited for.

Just respectfully disagreeing

: but am open-minded and up to a polite conversation regarding this topic.

 

[Minimor]

I quite agree with Lisa's post. This will be another division for people to complain about horses not belonging there.

Much of what belongs in which division is a matter of perception--perception of the exhibitors, not just the judges. While I agree that a true pleasure horse doesn't belong in the CP division, I happen to believe that a CP horse should still have some knee and hock flexion. There are still horses being shown that have no knee or hock flexion, they just swing along at their stiff legged little trot. IMO those horses are not the ones that should be winning country pleasure classes. There are horses being shown in the pleasure driving that should IMO be showing CP, not open pleasure. If those horses switch to the CP division, "you" see that as showing in a division they don't belong in: I see it as dropping down to the division they should be in.

Sometimes the judges are judging more accurately than some exhibitors like to admit.

edited because apparently when I type in a hurry in between carrying pails of water my spelling is atrocious.

 

[ownedbyapony]

Minimor I can't agree with you enough :aktion033: . I have included the rules for the Country Pleasure division from the AMHR rule book. Though it states that excessive action is to be penalized it does not state what excessive action is. In the ASPC portion of the rulebook excessive motion in the shetlands is considered anything over "level". However, the miniatures have no such definition. Many breeds have faced this same dilemma (Morgans, Saddlebreds and Hackneys). The quality of the horses in the division improves and the lower end horses have nowhere to go. The Country Pleasure division can actually be considered a regional type. In the New York the country pleasure horses are more of the "Park" type horses while in the Des Moines they are more of a "Western" type. I like to see "some" motion in my C.P. horses but my idea of extreme and another persons ideas of extreme may be totally different. The rules are vague and some personal interpretation is required. A judge with a background in Morgans will have a different opinion that the Judge from an AQHA background. JMHO

Part 14 – Country Pleasure Driving

A. General

B. Class Conditions

1. Ring Procedure: Country Pleasure Driving horses

are to enter the ring counterclockwise (to the right)

at a country pleasure trot. To be shown both ways

of the arena at a walk, country pleasure trot and a

extended trot. To stand quietly and to rein back. To

be judged 60% on performance, manners and way

of going, 30% on the condition, fit and

appropriateness of harness and vehicle, and 10%

on neatness, appropriateness of attire and overall

impression. Overchecks and side checks should be

slightly loose, not snug. The head set should

appear natural for the horse. Excessive knee action

and speed to be penalized.

a. Walk: A free, regular and forward moving four

beat gait. The horse should walk energetically,

but calmly, with an even and determined gait.

b. Country Pleasure Trot: A balanced, easy

moving, relaxed two beat gait demonstrating

forward movement.

c. Extended Trot: A clear increase in gait and

length of stride. The horse should move freely

on a taut, but light rein, while maintaining a

balanced gait and forward movement.

Excessive knee action and speed shall be

penalized

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

LOL thank you both fo saying what I was trying to only better!

For me it was really going to those ADS shows that helped me to "get it" with classes of Halflingers, Morgans, Saddlebreds and QH all in the same ring being judged in the same class.

Somehow for me that made it all really click

Many rules(on type and such) in the rule book have leeway for preference if they didnt.. we wouldnt need more then a couple of judges- part of the great thing is they are human do have there own preferences and bring that to the table when they judge our shows.

 

[Humhill]

I pretty much agree with everyone here - believe it or not.

The reason we can't get any "honest" judgings in the driving classes is b/c the judges pick what they prefer. A Quarter horse judge is going to pick a horse that looks like a Quarter horse (this happens in halter too), a Morgan judge is going to pick a horse that moves more like a Morgan. And every breed is different. The root of the problem is that there are no Miniature judges. 75% of the judges we have primarily judge other breeds and do minis "on the side." They just want another breed to add to their credentials. And when they judge the minis, they can't set that aside and judge them as Minis. Also, I think when judges see "Country" (and let's face it, most of them probably don't REALLY read the rule book or pay attention in seminars) they think , "Aawww, how cute, flowery dresses, straw hats, and a wooden wheel cart."

We've (my family) had a problem with the whole Country vs Single Pleasure debate for a LONG time now. I had a mare I showed for a long time and pretty much stopped showing her b/c she was in between. She had attitude, could set up and wear the harness (and I mean "wear the harness" in the definition saddle horse people do, not literally), but she didn't have quite the motion the Single horses did. So, the judges didn't like her in CP, b/c she didn't poke along with her nose out and on the ground (and that's what they expect), and didn't like her in SP b/c she didn't have motion. So what do you do??

I personally like what the saddle breeds do and would model my ideal off that (that's our background). There would be have Park classes - breaking level in the knee, HOT, almost impossible to get in a mini (they're just not built that way). Then you have the Open or in our case Single Pleasure - level knee action, high head set, Hot. Then there would be Classic Pleasure, natural motion, not as hot, but still a show horse. Then, Country Pleasure - more flat knee, laid back, lower, more natural headset.

Anyway, that's my opnion and my tirade on the subject.

Oh, and one more thing... If you're showing in harness, PLEASE clean your harness and polish your brass, don't forget, turnout is part of the equation.

 

[PrestigeMiniHorses]

I have to say Millie, my mare, is not quite the driving horse. But we have done pretty well in C.P. Driving but i have to say I do hope to see this new class.

The rules on the other hand of this driving ordeal with the judges is not how it should be...why have rules when you can't follow them. But then again we are all quilty of saying one horse is awful and then turn around have the judge place it fist in the class..

 

[MiLo Minis]

My feelings on this class: It will allow people to properly school their horses and yet still compete before they have achieved full development of their driving horse. All horses that are being properly schooled go through a phase where their headset is low and they are beginning to reach for the bit and stretch through their frame. It takes several years of correct schooling to develop the muscle necessary for correct higher head carriage and an elevated shoulder. As it is now, to be able to show and win with a young horse you have to bypass the correct schooling and resort to using artificial aids such as checks and martingales and weighted boots and chains or elastics producing a horse with hollowed back and stiff movement which essentially ruins the horse for future use as a driving horse. I like the idea of this class. It isn't asking for different action than country pleasure or pleasure just a lower headset and perhaps not as much speed. As the horse developes he will perhaps "graduate" to Country Pleasure or Pleasure depending on his own particular action which also developes some with correct collection and the ability to drive off the haunches that comes with time and good schooling. I think it will also allow for the less abled horses that will never be competitive at the higher levels to compete in a class which will allow more people to enjoy driving and that can be nothing but a good thing in my books - everyone should drive!!! :bgrin

 

[Jaxjag2000]

good discussion here! I love it!

As far as "there are no Miniature judges", I am a miniature judge and only a miniature judge. I grew up with miniature horses and have shown only miniature horses. I wish it was harder for judges who are carded with big horses to get a miniature horse card. If you already have a card, then in AMHA you do not have to jump many hoops to get your AMHA card. That should change, because you get a lot of judges who are unfamilar with the breed who are given a card without even having to apprentice and prove they can judge Minis. I can't imagine trying to get a judging card with a breed I am unfamiliar with. I take my judging too seriously. People are paying A LOT of money for my opinion so I darn well better know what I'm doing!

I'm not sure I like the idea of yet another country pleasure class. I think the 3 classes are enough. I agree that I can't stand when judges place horses in CP that should be in SP. Both registries need to provide more educational material for both exhibitors and judges.

Can someone post a picture (or video) of a horse that should be in Western versus a horse that should be in CP?

In fact, it would be really fun for people to post videos of their horses and have us say which class we think they should be in. I bet we'd get a lot of different opinions!

 

[justagirl]

Hey Jenn :saludando: I was hoping you'd find your way over and put your 2 cents in.