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Songcatcher

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I hope this story is not too long, but hope some of you can give me some advise. I am not going to use any names here because at least one of the people involved is supposed to be a notable breeder and trainer. I don't want to ruin any reputations, I just want to be done right.

I bought a gelding this Spring, hoping to have him trained to do some driving. (Actually, I bought two horses in the package, but the gelding is the only one I'm having a registration problem with.) They were advertised on the internet and seemed to be a very good buy. I got pictures and they looked nice. The person who owned them lived in one state and the horses were being boarded in another state. I emailed the person advertising them and didn't get much information until the person where they were being boarded emailed me.

I was a bit concerned about paying a person in one state when the minis were located in another state, but the boarder told me to go ahead and pay the advertiser so I did. I had agreed to pay for coggins, health papers, and vaccinations (not including WNV or Rabies) and this ran over $100 each. No problem, that was what I agreed to. Then, I had to wait for the person boarding them to get the vet out to get it done. No problem, I was not in a big hurry. Finally, I went to pick them up (over 200 miles away) and when I got there, I quickly realized that the pictures I had seen had to have been from LAST YEAR. The horses were extremely thin and in VERY poor condition. Good horses, just BADLY in need of feed, worming, and grooming. (Both look far better now.)

Now for the problem with the gelding. He was advertised as a gelding. He IS a gelding. BUT, when I got home and got ready to send in for a transfer, I noticed that his registration papers say stallion. The person who was boarding was actually a co-owner (their name on the papers also and the one who signed the transfer) so I emailed and asked for a gelding certificate so that I could accurately register the horse. I got an email back saying I would get one. Several weeks went by and still no certificate. I emailed again asking for it. I got an email back saying I would be sent one whenever the vet was out to the farm for another call.

Months have gone by now and I still do not have a gelding certificate. I have emailed the boarder/co-owner again expressing in a very polite manner that I really needed the gelding certificate because the horse could not be shown or even properly registered without it and I have had NO RESPONSE.

In all fairness, this person has experienced some severe stress due to another situation, but that problem has been resolved and I still have not heard a word.

I have never had a situation like this. I know I should have had a contract, but didn't. I know I should have checked the papers carefully when I picked them up, but didn't (I had already paid anyway so it was too late at that point).

Is it possible to have this horse examined by a vet and certify that he has been gelded and get the registration changed? If so, that will cost me extra which I shouldn't have to pay.

I guess I'm really hoping the person responsible will see this post, realize that their reputation is at stake, and do what is right by sending me the certificate. I don't know what else to do.
 

Jill

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I do not know the answer for sure, but I suspect that the AMHR will state a statement from your vet verifying the horse is a gelding. I'd call them on Monday and see if they will. Unfortunately, that will cost you a vet bill, but it maybe your fastest and easiest way to solve this problem. It could even be that the seller didn't pay the vet, or owes the vet, and is hesitant to ask him / her for a certificate. My feeling is that AMHR will work with you.
 

ruffian

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Can you contact the boarder again and find out the vet's name? There's really no reason why they would have to go back out to the farm to do a gelding certificate. Then perhaps you can send the form directly to the vet and have them sign it.
 

chelsey

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Sorry to hear about your dilemma . Maybe there is no report .Maybe some guy named bubba and his trusty pocket knife did it
It just seems a little fishy .I hope everything works out for you .

disclaimer( not saying that all men named bubba do this short of thing. If your name is Bubba please don't take offense
)
 
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walter

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IF THE SELLER DIDN'T HAVE ALL THEIR DUCKS IN ORDER THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE ADVERTISED THE HORSE TO START WITH. IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILIY TO MAKE THIS RIGHT. THE PAPER SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED WHEN THE HORSE WAS GELDED...BAD BUSINESS!!!

CLARA
 

Miniv

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Please don't sweat it...... If you have a form from the registry, have your own vet adjust the form certifying that the horse was inspected on such and such date and was indeed a gelding. The registry will accept it.

We've had to that sort of thing before.

MA
 

Songcatcher

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I will contact AMHR tomorrow and see what they say about it.

Can you contact the boarder again and find out the vet's name?
This person has not even been answering my email. That won't help. And, I know they have been home and on the computer because they have posted on the Forum.
Maybe there is no report .Maybe some guy named bubba and his trusty pocket knife did it  It just seems a little fishy .
This person claimes to have paid $110 to have him gelded. This person is not by any means a newbie and has a large number of horses. It does seem fishy that the proper papers were not filed at the right time.
THE PAPER SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED WHEN THE HORSE WAS GELDED...BAD BUSINESS!!!
I agree completely. However, I know we all make mistakes and am hoping this is a simple oversight that can be corrected. But I am beginning to lose hope.

Please don't sweat it...... If you have a form from the registry, have your own vet adjust the form certifying that the horse was inspected on such and such date and was indeed a gelding. The registry will accept it.
That may be the solution. I will check with AMHR on it tomorrow. However, that will put me out more money that I shouldn't have to pay. It was the responsibility of the person selling. If I wind up having to do this, I certainly will not have any good reference for this person.

I will update after I talk to the AMHR office tomorrow.
 

Jean_B

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Not a big deal...don't make a mountain out of a mole hill. Just have a blank certificate there the next time your vet comes to visit - and have him take a look at your boy... and sign the form. That's all you need. Forget about trying to deal with people who can't find their own be-hind with both hands.
 

Sue_C.

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Devil's advocate here...worst case senario...

I wonder if it might be because he is only "half-gelded". Even your Vet, won't be able to KNOW whether he has been completely and properly gelded, and not a cryptorcid that an unscrupulous Vet did half a job on. And yes, believe it, there are such Vets around.
 

Songcatcher

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Jean_B said:
Not a big deal...don't make a mountain out of a mole hill.  Just have a blank certificate there the next time your vet comes to visit - and have him take a look at your boy... and sign the form.  That's all you need.  Forget about trying to deal with people who can't find their own be-hind with both hands.
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Well, that might be the simplest solution to the situation. I printed off a Gelding Certificate and looked it over. I had in mind that it had to be signed by a vet. It simply says Date of gelding, Name of animal, Reg. # of animal, Signature of person who performed the operation, and Address of person who performed the operation.

So, since it doesn't specify that it has to be signed by a vet, I guess I could just lie and say that I did the operation myself instead of paying my vet to lie and say he did it. I don't like to do business that way. As a matter of fact, I won't do business that way. Unless I can get a certificate from the previous owner (as I was promised) or unless AMHR says they will accept a signed statement that he has been inspected and he IS a gelding, I will just sell him as unregistered and take my losses.

Please don't take offense. I'm not being judgemental of you or saying you would be unethical to do that, just that my consience won't let ME do that unless AMHR first says they will accept it.

Devil's advocate here...worst case senario...
I wonder if it might be because he is only "half-gelded". Even your Vet, won't be able to KNOW whether he has been completely and properly gelded, and not a cryptorcid that an unscrupulous Vet did half a job on. And yes, believe it, there are such Vets around.
That is one of my major concerns. He shows absolutely no studly behavior, but I don't know if a crypt would or not.
 

rabbitsfizz

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There is ABSOLUTELY no way a Vet can tell from the outside, if that horse is gelded, and the registry would be out of it's mind to accept the word of a Vet that did not do the gelding to assure them the horse is gelded. You could, however, ultrasound to detect the presence of another retained testicle. The people who sold you the horse are in breach of contract, if the papers are AMHR and the people register their horse with them,lodge an official complaint with the registry. If their registration privileges are suspended they will get your paperwork in oder PDQ!! I think you are right to smell a rat. One of the reasons the pares weren't signed at the time could be that the horse was half cut in the hope the other one would drop!!
 
T

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The gelding cert is no big deal in either registry and they are not the gelding police. It only puts on file that the horse has been gelded whether it has been or not, complete or not, and therefore all it means is that no offspring from that horse will be eligible for registry in the future.
 

Jean_B

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triggynblue said:
The gelding cert is no big deal in either registry and they are not the gelding police.  It only puts on file that the horse has been gelded whether it has been or not, complete or not, and therefore all it means is that no offspring from that horse will be eligible for registry in the future.
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EXACTLY!
 

Sue_C.

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The gelding cert is no big deal in either registry


It only puts on file that the horse has been gelded whether it has been or not, complete or not
But there must be a reason that a Vet has to sign this, right?? I know that the AMHA doesn''t simply take your word for it..."Oh yeah, by the way...my horse has been gelded", just doesn't do it. Good thing, or a lot of folks would be buying half-gelded cryptorcids and not being any the wiser. NOT all of them are nasty horrid animals, some could "pass".

I think the whole point here is of a distreputable breeder/seller here, who just can't be bothered with their end of the CONTRACT. Good heaven's, doesn't it tweak some of you at all that there might be a reason they are being so difficult?
 

Songcatcher

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Well, I just got off the phone with AMHR and they will NOT accept anything less than the signature of the person who actually performed the surgery. I asked them about having a vet examine him and signing a statement that he was gelded and they said that was NOT acceptable. So, anyone doing otherwise is not legitimately registering their animals.

Now I'm sure that it would be relatively easy to pay someone to LIE and say they performed the surgery, but I'm NOT going to do that.

Yes, I am beginning to feel that this seller is disreputable and I AM tweaked about it.
 

rabbitsfizz

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Freeland if you had him ultrasounded and the Vet doing this certified no testicles present, would that not be OK?? I wholeheartedly endorse your approach to this- if by chance he were to be half gelded, you would be passing on the problem to someone else which, by my standards and I am quite sure yours, is unethical. Would the AMHR not be interested in the fact that the horse has been misrepresented?? Is it not worth lodging a complaint with them??
 

Jean_B

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Sue_C. said:
But there must be a reason that a Vet has to sign this, right?? I know that the AMHA doesn''t simply take your word for it..."Oh yeah, by the way...my horse has been gelded", just doesn't do it. Good thing, or a lot of folks would be buying half-gelded cryptorcids and not being any the wiser. NOT all of them are nasty horrid animals, some could "pass".

I think the whole point here is of a distreputable breeder/seller here, who just can't be bothered with their end of the CONTRACT. Good heaven's, doesn't it tweak some of you at all that there might be a reason they are being so difficult?

421956[/snapback]

OK - first of all - AMHA DOES simply take the owner's word for it. All the owner needs to do is sign a statement that it was done--no vet certification needed. It is AMHR that requires the vet cert and I've never understood why they would want a vet's signature. In fact, it flies in the face of logic why anyone would want to have a horse's papers changed from Stallion to Gelding if they had not had the horse gelded! After all, you cannot register any offspring once those papers are changed! So why lie? There's nothing to be gained by this. Think about it! A paper says gelding. Which means no stallion service reports will be accepted and nothing can be registered.

I for the life of me cannot understand why AMHR would require a vet signature. Haven't been able to figure out the logic of that for the 15 years I've been at this. There is absolutely NO reason why any one would want to lie about this. And .... there are still some folks who geld their own colts and they are NOT vets!!!!!!! Again, WHERE IS THE LOGIC behind such a requirement?!?!?
 

rabbitsfizz

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Simply because unscrupulous people would have the descended testicle of a Monorchid removed and sell the horse as a gelding!!
 

Sandyboy1

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I had a similar incident last year when I purchased a horse and needed to complete the transfer papers as well as showing on the certificate that he is a gelding. The people who answer the phone at AMHR probably have no leeway when answering questions such as this, and twice I was told that I was just out of luck on this one. The third time I called, I finally said to her that I had spoken to her twice before and that I already knew she couldn't help me, so please let me talk to Zona, NOW!

After explaining the circumstances of the problem when I finally spoke to Zona at AMHR, she said all I needed was a statement from my current vet. My vet had cleaned the gelding's sheath and vaccinated him, so at least there was that much documentation for the vet to write a statement, and it didn't require another vet visit. I submitted the statement with the transfer and now my boy is registered as a gelding. The alternatives presented to me were a hormone test for testosterone or an ultrasound as has been suggested here. With persistence, I think you'll be successful registering your boy. Good luck!
 

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