AMHR National Late Entries

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RayVik

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Just to make my point clear from the above post

This is not just a abstract concept but opens the door to bring into question those people who sent the entries in this year using a means other then EXACTLY written in the rule but not late as per their assumed proper procedure to be brought into this debate

I have no idea how many sent their entries in at the last minute but I suspect if we are not careful the number of people affected could be much greater then perceived if someone really wants to play this hand
 

Minimor

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I don't believe this rule has to be changed by the usual route, that is by way of a proposal put in by July 1st--the process for changing a rule for this year's nationals would have had to have been started last Convention at the latest....  This is an AMHR Committee made rule in the rule book so there is a procedure to having it changed through the AMHR Committee, Convention, and then the Board. 

That means a new rule can be put into play for 2013
 

Minimor

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Okay, i have more time to post now--i  told that Ohio State Fair locks late entries out.  How is this different?  They turn down entries regularly that come in late.  It would se that whe some shows allow late entries, not all do.

Post marks - Using postmark is a long standing AMHR policy; it is used for everything including registration, temp to perm, futurity, membership, etc.   Didn't  the attorneys say postmark for verifying in by the deadline was okay when the Concerned Members lawsuit was going on?

I think that if push came to shove and someone tried to say that UPS or FedEx wasn't valid because there is no postmark, legal ruling would be that a date stamp on a FedEx or UPS package counts the same as a postmark date. I am not a lawyer but I work with lawyers daily and have a good grasp of legal interpretation. Hand delivered items have no postmark? Really--since anything hand delivered to the office would be there on or before the closing deadline it could not be refused. The rules do not state MUST BE MAILED.
 

~Lisa~

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The printing in the show program that someone mentioned is correct if we are going to scream a rule is a rule then we better realize how vauge our rule book is and how it can be taken.

I have seen horses left out of the show program and still allowed to show how is that different???

And I am wondering why we pay a show manager and then expect the board to rule on something that clearly is a show managers job and decision?

I am not sure how the rule can be put in place for 2013 atlhough it would not be the first time nor the last that rules mysteriously appeared or disappered in the rule book with no one really knowing or remembering the hows or whys
 
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Minimor

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Lisa, if a horse is left out of the program due to an error on the part of whomever set up the program, that is an error in the part of the show management. That is quite different than a horse being left out of the program because it was entered too late to be included.

I imagine it comes down to being a BOD decision because the late entry rule is in the registry rule book and because entries are submitted to the AMHR office, not to show management?
 

allaboutminis

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My question is how can the BOD vote on this. When the rule is in the rule book? Yes my heart does go out to the kids and the kids only because the have no controll in matter as the adults was to send the money and the paper work in.... I really don't care one way or the other as I made sure our paper work went in. Next question is since so many of you all have the facts is why did the person that mailed their paper work in on the 25 of July did not get them to hand stamp it. Something is just not adding up! But I was raised you have to follow a set of rules in life or not you will not like the out come. The ASPC/AMHR rule book is just like the rule book that we all had in school and do we all recall what happen if we did not follow the rules. Well the same applies here! I for one have made several comments on here and only to get a nasty email sent to me that I don't have a heart. Yes I do but like I have said and will say we all have to follow the rulebook! Some may not like it but that is okay because I am allowed to speak my mind!

As far as this if they do allow them to show what is going to happen if one of them is to win a class and someone protest! Well by the rule book all rules have been broken and that horse or horses will still not be able to show! And to be honest with you I do hope it will happen! To be more honest I have talk with a friend of mine that has nothing to do with horses and she works for a lawyer and like she said if they do allow this to happen well there will be a law suit ready to happen...... Just keep in mind that the world that we live in is not a fair one! I will not come back and speak on this again as I have said what I want to say and as a member of ASPC/AMHR I have that right!
 

Jill

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My question is how can the BOD vote on this. When the rule is in the rule book?
My take on it is that they are voting whether or not to uphold the rule. It's black and white, and not open to interpretation. So what is left to decide? Only whether or not the rule will be respected.

My heart goes out to those involved, but this isn't the first time someone has missed a deadline. Were exceptions granted previously? (My understanding is "NO".)
 

Sue_C.

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Wow...all this kerfuffle over a SHOW...seriously?
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Yes, rules are rules...BUT...have NONE of you nay-sayers ever been speeding...parked in the wrong zone, crossed a crosswalk before the pedestrian was completely across...etc...have you NEVER---EVER...been stopped for any of the aforementioned, and gotten the "stern talking to" instead of a ticket? I have...and was darned glad of it...and I broke a LAW...not JUST a rule.

It NOTHING ELSE...think to the financial repercussion of over 100 entries being refused. So, the registry couldn't use this $$ to "go on with the show"?

Personally, I think the person involved, who posted this on FB did themselves a HUGE disfavour by bringing this public, and I would be willing to bet my booties that such things have been allowed before.
 
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~Lisa~

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Holly no where does that rule leave room for it being human error it simply states if a horse is left out of the program it does not show period- if we are going to say rules are rules (which I do believe by the way) then they must all be black and white and not left open for anyone to decide what makes an exception and what does not.

TThat is something this registry rarely does and looking at our by laws and rules in the rule book there are plenty of rules that as written if actually followed could lead to a lot of issues.

We cant keep making more rules or changing old ones until we clean up the ones we have and actually follow them all the time for all the people ...
 

Minimor

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Lisa--it is a generally accepted thing in any organization that if it is the organization's error the individual does not pay for it

In my job I enforce rules and regulations-we interpret provincial statutes (laws) and make sure that all documents registered by our office comply with those laws. Nowhere is it written that there is room for error--but if our staff makes an error we fix it with no penalty to the customer. If we let something through with an error in it that is our problem, not the customers...we might even have to pay out of our assurance fund if our error resulted in a loss for a customer. Believe me, the AMHR program rule is no different--you would never win a case for eliminating a horse because the office/show management made an error and did not include that horse in the program. That would never fly in a court of law.
 
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ctinsley

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IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE HAVE BEEN SOME IN PAST YEARS WITH LATE ENTRIES ALLOWED TO ENTER. IT IS ALSO BEEN SAID THAT THE REGISTRY IS BEING LAX ON THE YOUTH FORMS AND IT IS IN THE "RULE" BOOK THAT THEY WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO SHOW WITHOUT THIS FORM. SO, ARE WE GOING TO BEND THIS RULE, OR ARE WE GOING TO TELL ALL THE YOUTH THAT DO NOT HAVE THE PAPERWORK, SORRY YOUR HARD WORK ALL YEAR WAS FOR NOTHING. I KNOW OF TIMES I WAS STOPPED FOR SPEEDING (A LAW) AND LUCKILY FOR ME THEY GAVE ME A WARNING INSTEAD OF A TICKET. THESE RULES IN OUR BOOK ARE CHANGED ALL THE TIME AND IF YOUR GOING TO STICK TO ONE ABOUT MAILING DATES THEN THE YOUTH RULE ALSO NEEDS FOLLOWED. ALSO THE RULE IN THE BOOK STATES NO ENTRIES ACCEPTED AFTER CLOSING DATE, IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT "I MAILED IT ON TIME BUT IT DOESN'T ARRIVE UNTIL A WEEK AFTER CLOSING DATE" I KNOW THAT MANY OF THESE LATE ENTRIES WERE OVERNIGHTED AND HAVE BEEN RECEIVED SEVERAL DAYS BEFORE THE OTHERS, SO IT LOOKS LIKE EVERYONE COULD GET THEIR NAMES IN THE SHOW PROGRAM, THAT IS NOT AN ISSUE.
 

andi

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I think what we all need to remember is that there are actual people behind all this. They are sitting at home having to deal with the reality that their mistake may cost them an entire year of working towards Nationals and the fun they have always had going and seeing everyone. Most of them, if not all of them, are not on here posting excuses, making a public spectical of themselves or trying to draw anymore attention to there situation. I know, if I was in their shoes, the last thing I would want right now is to hear everyones opinions on what we all think should be done. While it is "interesting" to talk about the "what if's" and different ways to look at this, I don't think it is worth the stress and hardship it has to be causing these people who already have more than enough on their plates.
 

Minimor

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Be reminded that postmark is the standard for meeting deadlines in AMHR.

 We must also realize that anything posted about what is and what isn't being done is heresay.  The info may or may not be accurate.

Youth qualifying has always been something that has been enforced! I highly doubt the office has relaxed the use of the form because it is our ONLY way to verify a youth showed a horse in an open class.  I do believe that it is likely that they have relaxed it for everyone else because it isn't required by the rulebook for anyone but the youth!
 

ruffian

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The rule is in place. Must be postmarked by this date. No late horses will be allowed (paraphrasing here). If the BOD allows this, then we might as well throw the rule book out.

As as steward I am responsible for enforcing the "rules" aka "laws" of AMHR/ASPC. If the BOD or Executive committee isn't going to enforce them, then how can I?

If one rule (date of entries) is bent, what about the rule of measuring?? Who wants to open THAT can of worms?

I do take offense from the comment about being afraid of the competition. Really? I'm traveling 1100 miles in the hope that those folks don't show??

This needs to be left to the BOD and EC.
 

RayVik

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Entry Forms:

1. The following is a list of information that must be included on the entry form. The show man- agement has the option to add other informa- tion.

d. Qualifying shows.

(1) Exhibitors/Owners to submit the AMHR Nationals Qualification Form signed by show management with entries that will list their qualifying shows, this form available from the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR Office or on www.shetlandminiature.com.
 

Jacki

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I have a question on the "Show Qualification Form". I mailed my entry prior to July 25th and included the "Show Qualification Forms" for all horses and shows that had taken place by then. Some of my horses were not qualified by that point in time, they qualified by virtue of attending a show on August 10th so I wrote that in the box labeled "If Qualifying show is aftrer AMHR entry Deadline date - List Here...". Do these horses still need a second "Show Qualification Form"? If so do I bring it with me to Nationals or send it to the office now?

Thanks,

Jacki Loomis
 
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myminis

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I think if you have a family death or a death of a horse, or sick horse in the family, you should be able to get your money back. I think the rule there is to ridged. Sometimes life throws you a curve, and your not expecting it. If I had a death in the family and missed the deadline well that is part of the rules I would think, but that is a grey area probably immediate family otherwise people would be taking advantage of it. OH my brothers friend died....... Rules are good and we need them, but sometimes are so tight that they don't allow for human compassion, and I would think with death certiifcates and vet notes should cover those things. We're not a dictorial socitiety.
 

drmatthewtaylor

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The rule is in place. Must be postmarked by this date. No late horses will be allowed (paraphrasing here). If the BOD allows this, then we might as well throw the rule book out.

As as steward I am responsible for enforcing the "rules" aka "laws" of AMHR/ASPC. If the BOD or Executive committee isn't going to enforce them, then how can I?

If one rule (date of entries) is bent, what about the rule of measuring?? Who wants to open THAT can of worms?

I do take offense from the comment about being afraid of the competition. Really? I'm traveling 1100 miles in the hope that those folks don't show??

This needs to be left to the BOD and EC.
Although life has a lot of grey area, there is black and white at each extreme. The late entry rule is not about an advantage in the ring. Measurement is about advantage.

My wife inadvertently broke a rule the entire year. She showed in a nice shirt that was short sleeved. We were told about our error by a steward. We are sorry and will correct it in the future, but no one kicked her out. Why?? Because any reasonable person would see that rules equivalent to traffic violations would be enforced differently than thievery.

Dr. Taylor
 

Davie

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I have read all these and thought how I would handle this situation -- well, a deadline is a deadline -- just like filing your income tax retun that date changes from year to year based on if the 15th is on a weekend -- just like deadlines with a court of law, you miss those you probably lose you lawsuit or find find yourself in worse trouble.

Here is my story and I could have been on the outside looking in this year.

I was home flat on my back almost in the hospital with a sever kidney infection. I heard on the news that it was the 25th of July--something went off in my brain about the date. I called my trainer and she thought the entries closed Friday the 27th. I called another friend of mine and she said no the entries closed that day. I scambled and called the trainer and said must get them in today!!!!

Train (thank heavens) lives 4 miles from me. She made out my entries, came to my home and got my check, a copy of my handicap plaquard, and amateur card. She called her other clients and got them to fax all their info to her and got the package together. She took the package to the post office, got out of the car, when inside and gave the package to the Post Master asking that it be post marked right then said no problem and hand stamped it while she was there.

Yes we had to do a lot of scambling to get our entries in on time but we did it. If the person/people in question took the change and placed their entries in a drop box at the post office--I'm sorry--it only takes a couple of minutes to park your vehicle, take the envelope/package into the PO; hand it to the post master and ask that it be postmarked right then. They will do it so you can see that it was done. Even if you express mail it/overnight it they will still hand stamp the package.

To me if you have spent the time to qualify and are going to Nationals--you know there is an entry deadline every year --- the deadline is no more important that any other deadline like your tax return. We all knew when it was. It was stated in so many places. I know all of us have busy lifes with lots of things on our mind. If I had not had a bell go off in this old brain that was medicated I would have missed the deadline along with my trainer and all of her clients and I will say up front -- would have been no excuse except our own.

To me a deadline is a deadline, if your going to allow an excuse for one then you better allow an excuse for all and what a can of worms will that open up? Maybe next time they will pay a little closer attention.

Important dates are place not only on my IPhone calendar, it is on my home computer, work computer and the calender in my purse--I almost always look at one of those at least once during the day.

Off my soapbox now -- I could easily have been one of those on the outside and I could have called and told the home office about my illness and plead my case but in the end -- my fault I would have missed the deadline--not my trainer's or any of her other clients. I as the owner always call my trainer and ask before the closing date of ANY show if entries have been mailed.
 

Jill

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RULE BOOK: (noun) a collection of rules or prescribed standards on the basis of which decisions are made

DEADLINE: (noun) 1. the time by which something must be finished or submitted; the latest time for finishing something. 2. a line or limit that must not be passed.
 
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