AMHR / ASPC regsitered horses

Discussion in 'Pony Talk' started by muffntuf, Jan 7, 2008.

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  1. Jan 7, 2008 #1

    muffntuf

    muffntuf

    muffntuf

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    There is a rule in the AMHR / ASPC rule book that I puzzle over - on page 234 It states cross entering between ASPC and AMHR is not allowed at the same shows.

    does anyone have any history on this rule? there are so many double registered horses now - is this an obsolete rule?
     
  2. Jan 7, 2008 #2

    disneyhorse

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    No, you can not cross-enter your horse at the same show. You must choose to exhibit the horse as a Miniature OR as a Shetland. You can not show in both types of classes at the same show.

    Generally people with ASPC/AMHR double-registered horses choose which division it will be most competitive in. The smaller ones are generally more competitive as Minis, and the taller ones as Shetlands... but some people promote their horses as both during the year, just choosing one or the other at different shows, and then showing them at Congress and again at Nationals.

    I'm not sure why you CAN'T show them as both though, it could only bring more show fees for shows [​IMG]

    Andrea
     
  3. Jan 7, 2008 #3

    muffntuf

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    Thanks Andrea - I know you can't. I am looking for history and clarification. I have a lot of people at the show I work at who are starting to ask why. That's why i am asking.
     
  4. Jan 7, 2008 #4

    Leeana

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    Hi,

    Yes like Andrea said if you have an AMHR/ASPC horse you can only show it as an AMHR or an ASPC, not in the same at one show even though most shows offer both amhr/aspc classes.

    Same with the ponies, if you are showing a horse as a foundation at a show you cannot then put it in the classic division at the same show, unless of course none of the classes offer foundation (ex. Classic Liberty, there is not foundation liberty, Classic Jumper/Hunter ..there is no class for the foundation jumper/hunter).
     
  5. Jan 7, 2008 #5

    muffntuf

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    Thanks Leeana, but again - i am looking for history and clarification as to why we can't. The horse has two separate registrations with different reg numbers. So why can't they?
     
  6. Jan 7, 2008 #6

    txminipinto

    txminipinto

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    I believe its a fairness issue.
     
  7. Jan 7, 2008 #7

    muffntuf

    muffntuf

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    Why do you think it is a fairness issue?
     
  8. Jan 7, 2008 #8

    txminipinto

    txminipinto

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    It's consider not fair to be judged twice in the same type of class. It would look unfair if the horse won as a mini and then turned around and won as a shetland.
     
  9. Jan 7, 2008 #9

    Karen S

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    Hi Muffntuff,

    This rule was vote on back at the 1999 Convention. Back when the double registered horses were first being introduced into the show ring. Yes, it was a fairness issue and most of those that were most unhappy were the miniature exhibitors. Yes, it would bring in more revenue for the shows and clubs, but the issue was that horse being shown twice under the same set of judges and winning.

    Even though they hold both sets of registration papers they must declare which way for each show they plan on showing. As a miniature you have to show under four judges at two seperate shows to participate at Mini Nationals, as a Shetland we don't have to qualify to show as Congress as our numbers aren't as large as the miniatures.

    Hope this helps with this piece of history.

    Karen
     
  10. Jan 7, 2008 #10

    muffntuf

    muffntuf

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    Thanks Karen. Is the exhibitor community still feeling this way now that there are so many doubled horses?
     
  11. Jan 7, 2008 #11

    Lewella

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    I would think it would be even more of a fairness issue now that there are more ASPC/AMHR animals showing than ever before.

    Hey Karen....

    Wasn't there something on the agenda at the Buffalo convention about not allowing cross entering even into non-rated classes (ie. Futurities)?
     
  12. Jan 8, 2008 #12

    Karen S

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    Good Morning,

    Yes even more now as Lewella has stated. I hear it (and read here on the mini side of this very chat group) that the Miniature people hate to compete against the small shetlands. They are here to stay and gaining popularity.

    Lewella, I would have to go find my notes on that one about the futuries as I don't remember right off hand.

    Thanks.

    Karen
     
  13. Jan 8, 2008 #13

    muffntuf

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    Thanks Karen,

    but here is the deal, its the miniature people who are asking me! But I don't know all these people were around when the rule was voted in or went into effect. I passed the miniature post onto them and advised that they need to contact their area directors or make a proposal for a rule change.
     
  14. Jan 8, 2008 #14

    Boinky

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    I guess what i don't get is how this rule changes the facts that Mini shetlands are going to show against mini's.. it's going to happen no matter how much mini people scream. They are growing more and more popular and they are still mini's any way you cut it.

    I guess i Don't see how showing as a whole different "breed" really conflicts with showing in the mini division too..but that's just me. I do hear the frustration with people though as there are very very few AMHR show's and even fewer ASPC show's up here in the north east and those at are, are usually combined with AMHR show's..not much to pick and choose which horse show's in which division.
     
  15. Jan 8, 2008 #15

    muffntuf

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    I think the reasoning on fairness has to do with minis and shetlands competing against each other. If a horse wins under the judges in the miniature B Halter class and then enters the Foundation or Classic Shetland under halter class and wins under the same judges, exhibitors see this as their horses not getting a fair chance in that class. The issue to my understanding is being judged by the same judges for both shetland and miniatures.
     
  16. Jan 8, 2008 #16

    Lewella

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    No, it doesn't have anything to do with minis and Shetlands competing against each other - that happens in AMHR classes with ASPC/AMHR animals all the time and has for as long as there has been an AMHR (dual registration is far from a new thing!)

    The issue is that the same judges are judging BOTH breeds at the same show. Judges are human - they are going to remember a horse from an earlier class in the other breed. This isn't fair to the person exhibiting that horse (especially if the judge didn't like the horse, or it acted up, etc.). It isn't fair to the exhibitor that isn't showing a dual registered animal - he's going to have to be twice as good to get that judges eye when put up against an animal that had a spectacular showing earlier.

    To me, this is no different than the fact that you cannot show in different ASPC divisions with the same horse at the same show. Say I have a Foundation Certified Modern that makes Foundation height. I could in theory show it in all FOUR Shetland divisions - it qualifies for all of them in pedigree and height. Let's say this is a great animal - tons of eye appeal, great ring presence, and I have the skill and it has the training to either rev up or go easy to show in all four divisions. Would it be fair to the other exhibitors for me to show that pony Modern and then turn around and show it again under the same judge in Modern Pleasure, again in Classic and again in Foundation? Heck No! Would it save me money at shows? Sure - but just because it would save me money doesn't make it fair.
     
  17. Jan 9, 2008 #17

    Karen S

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    Lewella,

    In my notes regarding the Futuries...If a double registered animal is Futurity nominated in the ASPC and AMHR it can show in both Futuries as they do hold two sets of registration papers and the Futuries are based on the breeding programs.

    Karen
     
  18. Jan 14, 2008 #18

    Boinky

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    Ok not trying to dredge this out..but now that i've had time to think about it.. i do have another question. Why would cross entering from shetland classes be considered any different than cross entering from an Ammy class to an Open class? That judge (well at local AMHR show level) would be seeing that particular horse before entering an open class which could also give it an unfair advantage right? just curious about all this... sorry if i'm sounding stupid.
     
  19. Jan 14, 2008 #19

    muffntuf

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    It's not a silly question, but there is a difference there - the judges can see an AMHR horse in 3 classes in a row - open, ammy, and youth, correct? But it is staying in the AMHR division. if you re-read lewella's post - it makes more sense, although not 100% sure if i agree.
     
  20. Jan 14, 2008 #20

    Boinky

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    I guess i understand what she's saying but i don't understand truly how it's different. the judge is still seeing those horses that go Youth/Ammy and then Open twice or more times. they still seeing that horse act up or show really well or whatnot. Theoretically a judge should be able to be open minded enough to be able to judge between shetland standards and mini standards.. i mean i know theory isn't always possible..but i'm TRULY not getting what the problem is. I could certainly see, for example, showing a modern against a differen't "type" as they are very different than say a classic and way different than many miniatures... I'm just very confused by this i guess.
     

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