AMHA Show Ring Driving vs. Carriage Driving...why isn't there more cross-over?

[Littlegoesalongway]

Was competing at a local Pleasure Show recently and had a lady approach me with an interesting conversation and challenge. She has mini's, drives, is involved with the miniature horse show circuit and also strongly believes in the training skills (dressage principles) and safety practices that are common in the carriage driving world. She desperately wants to promote carriage driving (and combined driving) to the breed circuit people as she felt it would greatly improve the safety and training foundation for driving horses in the breed ring, give breed ring drivers another avenue to show their horses & test their skills, and also potentially help develop a better market for driving horses. But from her perspective, there seems to be a wall between breed ring drivers and carriage drivers...people don't want to (or don't see the value) in crossing over either way.

Now, I come from a big horse background, have been involved with our carriage driving organization for several years but only recently started driving VSE (and am LOVING IT!!!). I have no experience in the mini show circle. For some reason I always had it in my head that we need to be promoting VSE's as carriage driving horses to big-horse people who want to get into driving. Never crossed my mind that there is a host of miniature owners/competitors out there who we should be promoting to as well.

I'm curious...is there a wall between breed ring driving and carriage driving that people are hesitant to cross? If so, what's holding them back? What's the reason behind the "Us" and "Them" mentality? Or is this just unique to our local area?

My gelding, Rowdy has opened my eyes to the miniature's potential as a true sport horse, one capable of competing on the same level as the big ones. Is there a way to work together with the breed ring folks to promote these horses as such and help build another potential market for these remarkable little packages?!

Thoughts?

 

[R Whiteman]

She should move to the Pacific Northwest. We have a large contingency of folks that are successfully competing in both venues . Some of the horses compete at breed shows one weekend and at a CDE the next. AMHA and AMHR both are involved in promoting the miniature horse in carriage driving events. Both are currently developing programs to encourage crossovers. Many people just don't have enough time to take on additional interests.

Ron

 

[Flying minis]

Maybe it's just my experience, but although I find carriage driving interesting, and would like to try it, I likely never will. Why? Because of all the carriage drivers I have ever met or spoken to (including on forums) a majority come off as arrogant toward show horses - that the show horses are incorrrectly trained and driven, and that show drivers are not knowledgeable about driving. You can argue that point, and tell me that they are not like that, but that has been my experience with 90% of the carriage drivers I have had contact with.

It seems to be similar to the arrogance of many dressage riders (when I used to show horses and also ride dressage) - the way they do it is correct, and no one else's methods or results are acceptable.

 

[Sandee]

I'd have to say a combination of the superiority sometimes expressed by carriage drivers and fear of the unknown.

I also have the problem that I would have to learn a lot of new stuff and at my age that ain't easy. Plus I'm pretty sure there's new equipment involved. The Cde shows seem to be at the same time as a lot of our breed shows. Can't be two places at once.

Maybe some of you that drive carriage can enlighten us.

For instance, I was under the impression that you had to have wooden wheels to compete in Cde. Right or wrong?

I suppose that I'd have to add a breeching to my show harness which is an additional piece to buy. Right?

Also the carriage shows don't offer any other performance classes other than driving, right? I really enjoy the hunter classes and obstacle halter, and liberty etc.

 

[Kendra]

Well, I'm a breed show person first, but I love the carriage driving, especially the dressage based training. I compete in both (not this year, as I'm not driving a horse that's appropriate for combined driving at the moment - year after next, I'll be back at it for real though!) and have convinced a number of my breed show friends to give combined driving a try. Our AMHA club (which is very much show oriented) has a new high point trophy in the works for combined driving - any member is eligible, they simply need to submit their results.

I don't believe there's a wall between the two. As I said, I've spent a lot of time talking up CDE (people may be sick of hearing about it and being forced to look at my photos hehe), and there is no one who wasn't interested in giving it a try. There is an extensive learning curve just for the rules of a CDE, that I think makes some people nervous, but mostly I would say that all that is holding most people back is a limited amount of time and finances available for horse activities each summer.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

If there was a CDE event closer to me I would for sure go. I think there is several hours from me but like some said it's expensive to do both. Maybe one year I can take a break from the show ring and go to one. I think it would be a lot of fun.

 

[Jetiki]

not every one trains their driving horses to be successful outside of an arena. There are some that don't take the time and skip steps making it hard to go back to re do those steps when you decide you want to go outside and play. Yes you need breeching, its a safety and comfort issue for the horse, especially with a heavier carriage, wooden wheels adds weight. It depends on the organizer of the event if wire wheels can be used, but its a safety issue, some wire wheels have been known to fold in half in a turn, this can get very ugly, or if you are out on the trail you pop a tire, you may have a long walk back. Some breed show people won't take the overcheck off, and this is not allowed in the ADS ring, side checks are allowed but discouraged. I had someone at a breed show tell me that breeching should never be used and that it was completely unnecessary period. Find a fellow mini person and go have fun or go watch (only costs gas to get there).

 

[Littlegoesalongway]

I understand the differences in equipment rules (breeching, checks, cart & wheel types) and subsequent mentalities between breed ring & carriage driving...it's the same with the big horses as well It's always bothered me when a group starts bashing another group just because the rules are different. THAT alone is enough to turn anyone off of a certain crowd, let alone want to try something new. Don't they realize they are cutting themself off of another potential market?

I know breeders breed for specific sports & specialties (halter, jumping, driving, etc). Are there miniature breeders who breed specifically for carriage driving-type horses? Or are breeders aware of the potential market possibility, especially for the B-sized and over-sized horses? I get asked all the time if I know of any well broke-to-drive mini's for sale. Since I don't move in the breed/show circle, I have limited recommendations to offer. It would be nice to build more of a relationship between the two communities as I think it would mutually beneficial, but I'm not sure how to go about starting one.

 

[Littlegoesalongway]

PS - Kendra, so glad to hear you'll be back sooner or later....EVERYONE keeps asking about you at our events!!

 

[disneyhorse]

If there's a "wall" it's purely perception.

However, I believe that although in both circuits there is a common denominator (horse is hooked to vehicle) the basic goals are different.

In the breed ring, the judge is looking for a brief snapshot of what the horses' biggest talent/potential athletically. What is the horse's overall trot and headset look like? What is a quick, overall pretty picture? Can the horse do very basic things like flat walk and maybe back up a step or two? But the judge looks hard at the headset and extended trot. And maybe only sees the horse go around on the rail for a lap or two. So, shortcuts in training and stay-at-the-basics is okay. A young horse may be just broke to show for a year before being retired for breeding (some programs like to have their halter horses show a year in driving to prove they are versatile breeding animals). So the breed ring is just a venue to showcase in this manner. Otherwise, what's the fun in going around and around in circles with the same horse for fifteen years straight? The challenge is in breaking and showing new, up coming animals in many cases. Some do of course keep showing their same horse's if they enjoy it!

The carriage driving circuit provides ongoing training challenges for working with a single horse. Long term development is the goal. This is unlike the breed ring where new youngsters are constantly proving themselves in driving (and halter,etc).

So because the overall goals are different for each venue, you get some butting of heads on procedures and principles. Breeching is definitely more comfortable for a horse being driven all day in demanding environments, but is unneeded for a ten minute class in an arena with good level footing and the need to back only two steps. Over checks have different meanings. Training foundations are often rushed so that the futurity horse can be competitive with 90 days on it. They are different worlds with different goals. So no one may ever always see eye to eye. But there are those that do both, and do both successfully, so it is possible.

 

[Kendra]

Oh yes, I'll be back! I'm driving my old horse this year (22!) and with his history he's not up for the conditioning or the extra miles of hauling. But I have this two year old .... ;-) Have high hopes for him, can't wait to get him started in harness!

Good luck at your event next weekend! Hope you have a great turn out!

(Hawk is doing better, BTW - not sure he'll ever be able to compete at the level he was at, but I am optimistic that he'll be able to drive!)

 

[Grace67]

This is a great thread and the carriage driving aspect with minis is what I'm most interested in. I come from a riding background so am completely new to driving but last year I read an article in Dressage Today about a woman who was doing driven dressage with a mini and that's what prompted me to buy my first miniature gelding a few months back. My boy Captain has been shown successfully on the AMHA/PtHA circuits in both in hand and driving classes and is probably best suited for country pleasure. I wanted an experienced driving horse who has an engine and nice movement and as soon his mouth heals up from a nasty summer sore we will head to the driving trainer for lessons (more for me than him).

I'll admit I'm a bit intimidated by the idea of driving at ADS and CDE events with the big horses and after reading some of these posts am also a bit disappointed that the stereotypes exist in the driving world just as they do in the riding disciplines, was hoping to get away from that. However I'm still excited to start on my new adventure and will be following this topic as well as others related to ADS and CDE type training and events. After many years of showing pleasure and halter on big horses I'm a bit tired of being confined to an arena going round in endless circles. At this point I'm more about the journey than the destination and look forward to developing myself and my horses over many years.

 

[targetsmom]

Wow, what great thread! As breeders of "miniature sport horses" competing in breed shows and ADS events, this is right up my alley! I also read that article in Dressage Today and if you kept getting the magazine you might hat noticed the letter to the editor I wrote about it that was published a few months later.

For now, I show mainly in Pinto shows where most of the drivers use breeching and many drive wooden wheeled carts. I enjoy the competition but don't always agree with the judging. But at ADS events, there are usually just two of us competing in VSE and the only time I have a chance is if Linda gets DQd! Next year I hope to do more AMHA and AMHR shows, competing in Classic or Western pleasure classes. I also hope to do another ADS show this month where I can compete in a class for drivers age 65 and older (against all size equines) where I hear there will be plenty of competition. And we can't wait until our 2012 colt Clyde is old enough to drive:http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k29/targetsmom/?action=view&current=P1050483.mp4

Last year I was taking frequent driving lessons from a former riding instructor (dressage) who has recently taken up driving but this year she has been too busy to fit us in her schedule. She was a huge help while the lessons lasted anyway.

 

[Becky Horat]

Very helpful explanation Black Draft!! This is how I've been viewing the breed show driving classes. I am just starting to show in breed shows and plan to do some carriage classes as well. I am really drawn to the Obstacle, Hunter, and reinsmanship classes in breed shows. I also believe the horses should be able to compete in both types of driving areas. I get tired of the opinionated people...they're in every type of horse events...no matter what you do. Just keeping an open mind and making my own opinions is my goal.

 

[TMR]

I have competed in both AMHA/AMHR shows for the past 20 years and for the past 4 years have competed in CDE's. I no longer do the A/R shows but mainly because I don't like the arena classes and as everyone knows showing gets expensive so I choose to spend on CDE's. I love the challenge of dressage and the speed of the cones and marathon. I love the fact that you get the judges card and get to see exactly what you did right or wrong on every movement of the test in dressage. I like seeing my ponies improve each year and add new movements as they strengthen themselves. A true extended trot is like floating on air as they get so light in your hands, but takes a long time to truly achieve properly. I like taking my horse through the levels and being able to concentrate on that one horse for years and make a true connection with him as we advance through the levels. I hope that I don't come off as snotty about the carriage driving when I post as I don't mean to and have nothing against the A/R shows. It is two different styles of driving for the most part and I understand the difference in the two different venues. Andrea pointed out the differences very well in her post so I won't repeat her. I just find being the only one in the ring in dressage to be much more of a challenge than being in a ring with 10-20 others and hoping the judge sees you and no one cuts you off at an inopertune time. I still help several others that are show ring drivers in their training and have helped them with problems that arise, so I don't think there is truly a wall between the two styles. I think a respect of each style is all that is needed and play each game the way it is played. When I was showing at A/R shows I would add a side check and take off the breeching. No big deal.

Don't let someone stop you from trying something due to their attitude. Everyone I have met at the CDE's are nothing but friendly. A few at pleasure shows can have a bit of an attitude, but I think that comes with some having money and thinking they are better than others and you find that everywhere. I have ran into just as much attitude at A/R shows and just choose to ignore it. I am afraid a bit of attitude is at every type of horse event so don't let that keep you away from learning new disciplines.

 

[Al B]

We do a lot of both.

 

[ClickMini]

grace67 and targetsmom, that Dressage Today article was written by my friend Michelle Hoch. she is going to be ecstatic that it actually resulted in someone getting their first mini to drive! Michelle and i just co-wrote another article that was published in the current issue of Miniature Horse World called, "For the Love of Liberty," you might want to check it out.

I can't wait to tell her about this thread! And by the way, I drive in both venues and love both!

 

[Grace67]

ClickMini please tell your friend Michelle many MANY thanks from me. I was at a very low point in my riding career (contemplating knee replacement surgery and had a horse who wasn't suited for me anymore) and was ready to give up horses for good after having them for over 30 years. Her article gave me some hope that there might be a new discipline where I could continue my journey in dressage and possibly be competitive in something again. I did end up having my left knee replaced in December 2011 and had sold my "dream" horse several months eariler, I ended up keeping my semi-retired fjord gelding and after many months of searching purchased my first miniature gelding two months ago. I was so excited when the shipper arrived that I had tears of joy running down my cheeks and could hardly talk, it was like getting my first horse all over again and he brings me great joy each day. I'm still recovering and gaining my strength back from my knee surgery and though he is an experienced driving horse I've yet to actually hitch him as we've been battling a nasty summer sore in the corner of his mouth right where the bit lies. But once that is healed I'm ready to line up my driving lessons with him and get back to my journey in dressage.

And I've since purchased a second miniature gelding who is also an experienced driving horse and he'll be arriving to me later this fall. He's younger and a bit bigger than my other gelding, he may be my CDE horse hopefully

 

[DJF Miniature Show Horses]

Hello..breed show driver here (and open too). I was all excited about "trying" VSE. I took off the check and martingale. Added the breeching and taught my mini to lope. Practiced cones. Already schooled him dressage so that wasn't a stretch. Drove outside the arena on trails. Up and down hills and through water. I too am from the big horse world. retired pro barrel racer and dabbled in western classes with Paints and QHs. Took lessons in dressage for years for fun. Here is why I will never "crossover" to ADS.

I love driving in the arena. I like a rhinestone here and there. I have to wear sunglasses. My horses move better with their check and martingale. I like my shaft stops. I hate the wooden wheels or solid wheels. I like my boot versus wooden basket exposed.My show buddies are not bossy like the CDE people I have met. I don't enjoy big horses driving around me. Its scary! I also like my extra classes outside the driving ones.There is no "wall" as far as I can tell. Its simply a choice..

The people I show with including myself train the heck out of our minis. We all do dressage and obstacles to fine tune our show horses. Our minis are very well trained and responsive.

Also , I joined ADS for a year. I was shocked at how high the entry fee's are! I could not afford both types of showing....

 

[paintponylvr]

Great thread, glad it started...

I am stuck between both worlds due to a few other "problems", LOL... First, my VSEs are Shetlands - most well over the limit of AMHR/AMHA regulations for breed showing. Second - I'm in a state that doesn't have Shetland shows (but does have several AMHR/AMHA shows) and while we seem to have BIG venues for CDE - they are really only a couple a year. I have several Shetlands that qualify for AMHR registry by height - but then I have to decide if it's worth it to register them with the cost of that extra piece of paper. Then with family/friends not available to care for the ponies left at home, and having even a part time job, going on the road regularly is next to impossible to haul to venues that encompass more than one day or are several states away requiring more than one day in travel to/show/travel home.

Getting into both breed showing (finally this year) and CDE - I've run into the "snooty" attitudes in both "arenas". I'm learning to develop a "thicker skin" and not be so sensitive to that type of attitude and just do what I can where I can (honestly I've experienced that in every horse breed/venue I've been in, so it's nothing new). Competition in performance, in the end, is to demonstrate what my equine and I know and can do - right?? Personally, I've always wondered why anyone has that "snooty" attitude - because when a beginner or newbie to that breed/venue experiences that, they often drop out of that venue and new "blood" is then lost to that field. With so many other "things" taking people in other directions, once you lose them at all, getting them back into Horses can be diffcult! I've talked to so, so many people who've stated they won't get involved in the world (s) that are so "opinionated"... I've gotten some involved in Shetlands/Minis that experienced that with other horse breeds.

That said - I'm taking info from both worlds and incorporating it into my driving and learning. Adding in the extra training that is needed for the extra peices of equipment for CDE driving gets done right from the beginning - even if a pony is going to go into the breed ring. In the same token, they are introduced to the side check as well, so that they are ready for the breed ring. The type of ponies/minis I have aren't shown highly checked. There are driving trainers and instructors from both worlds available w/i several states that I can haul to. Expense does "get in the way" - for equipment, shows/breed & club memberships, hauling long distances both in & out of state when shows and trainers/instructors not available here. I am looking at choosing which venues I'd have to do when - as I don't think I'd be able to do both in the same years (don't have all the equipment yet for actual CDE competition, nor are my ponies/myself properly prepared yet...).

The equipment for either breed shows and for CDE is specialized and at upper levels - quite costly. Getting equipment for both adds up quickly!! Some folk simply can't do both or even either due to their financial commitments. Others, I believe, simply don't want to compete (see last paragrah).

Sooo - I found a "different venue", too. It allows me to learn something new, on a non-competitive level. It gets our Shetlands (& minis ) out to a BIG (ger) audience - some very surprised what you can do with minis/shetlands coming from a BIG draft horse background and others from no horse background. It gives me access to other men and women who train driving horses - and found some that do cross venues and have a deep and wide appreciation of all types of driving. It is also allowing me to explore a thought that I had originally many, many years ago and is now allowing me to bring it to the forefront and utilize it. That is very simply that - my property is now being worked/maintained by the ponies that it sustains... I've been hauling my Shetlands (overall called minis by Draft Horse folk) to local draft horse events. Sometimes we've even participated in the actual field work (yep, Shets can and do pull farm equipment). The Draft Horse sales have regular driving equipment at them - both vendors selling outside the actual sales AND sales of both brand new as well as used or antique equipment. Some of the events I've attended have been just "Plow Days". Others have been "Trail Drives" (& wow - what a WIDE assortment of both manufactured and home built or custom built horse drawn vehicles). Still others have been a combination event - where plowing was going on in the fields but there were also wagons and carts in attendance - giving public rides to folk that showed up to watch the events. One of those events had well over 1,000 people in attendance!! I handed out business cards, 3 fold brochures AND info on ASPC/AMHR (if I'd had CDE stuff w/ me, I'd have handed it out to, but didn't have it)... That HAS generated some calls to me about ponies for sale - but most in our area don't want to pay for started but green ponies nor do they want the babies these past couple of years... Several have found new horses/ponies at some of the sales - for <a lot> less than what I sell mine at and then have joined us at the Draft Horse functions (and I think some will also be doing either or both breed/cde showing).

Honestly, I love going to some of the places I've got around me where I can trail drive. It's fun, off the roads and non-competitive AND very, very affordable!! I've done it both with other drivers and riders and by myself (could be dangerous and sometimes gets lonely, LOL). The cost is simply for the required equipment and gas to get there as well as a fee to utilize the trails (some don't charge). There are 4 places w/i 50 miles of us to go to and if I want to venture out further - there are many, many places to go enjoy.