AMHA Carriage Class Proposal

[shalamara minis]

Adding a class between Single and country I do not think is the way to go. Add a class below country the same as AMHR and it might work. There is a class above single that is very seldom used, Formal Park Driving. Having a class between Single and Country will only cause more confusion with the judges. We should follow AMHR on this one.

 

[Al B]

Leia,

No problem but when you quote and then say "you" it does seem that way.

Your opinion is welcomed. Since I compete heavily on both sides of this fence (AMHA/ADS) I am often pulled both ways so I get a bit testy. My apologies.

I am on the AMHA Show Rules Committee and have also listened to Gary's explanation of what they are trying to do and honestly, I don't believe they are trying to attract away or even emulate ADS driving. I know because he has had to listen to me talk about ADS and CDE's as late as this past weekend (we put on an ADS/CDE seminar at the AMHA show in Katy). They are simply trying to make a place for more horses to compete in AMHA driving. I do believe this class is intended to be "below" Country Pleasure.

 

[JourneysEnd]

I leave for a few minutes and it get interesting

I think it's sad we've had to add a class, but until judges learn what collection actually is there's not much choice.

Don't know why the cart should be "open-wheeled" though. Is there a rule in "A" you have to use an open-wheeled cart in Single & Country ? I don't show "A" anymore, but I would be tempted if there was a Western type class or at least a class where my horse didn't have to have his head jacked up.

As far as checks go, I use side checks and adjust to where they have no effect. Got laughed at by the judges at Corsicana this year. I still took both strakes reserves .

Al & Leia, play nice

Can't have my mentors fussing at each other.

 

[sfmini]

I agree with others on the confusion of the name selection.

Hunter seems a little weird to me, but maybe something like a driven hack? Hunter hack is a flat class for hunter horses......

I do think we should just suck it up and call it Western driving to maintain consistency.

One thing I do see missing is a rule stating cross entry among this, country, and single will not be allowed.

Looks like the June meeting could be interesting.

 

[ThreeCFarm]

I've never watched Western Country Pleasure, but I have to say, just the name conjures up an ugly image for me...I HATE watching Western Pleasure due to the horses moving like they are lame with their heads hanging and it seems to me it is getting worse, not better. Anyway, I have NO interest in a class like that for the minis, but Hunter Pleasure brings to mind nice, forward moving horses with long, ground covering, low strides. I personally LOVE Hunters.

sfmini, it may be different in your neck of the woods, but out here, Hunter Hack is a class that involves rail work as well as two jumps. Hunter Under Saddle would be the ridden equivalent to a Hunter Driving Class.

I don't know that I'm for or against this new class yet, but by all means, change the name--Carriage Driving it is not!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Al & Leia, play nice

Can't have my mentors fussing at each other.

Yes'm!

Sorry Al.

Honestly, I just snip things out that made me think as I read them then reply below each thought. I wasn't even paying attention to who had said what!

Leia

 

[JourneysEnd]

I've never watched Western Country Pleasure, but I have to say, just the name conjures up an ugly image for me...I HATE watching Western Pleasure due to the horses moving like they are lame with their heads hanging and it seems to me it is getting worse, not better. Anyway, I have NO interest in a class like that for the minis, but Hunter Pleasure brings to mind nice, forward moving horses with long, ground covering, low strides. I personally LOVE Hunters.

sfmini, it may be different in your neck of the woods, but out here, Hunter Hack is a class that involves rail work as well as two jumps. Hunter Under Saddle would be the ridden equivalent to a Hunter Driving Class.

I don't know that I'm for or against this new class yet, but by all means, change the name--Carriage Driving it is not!

Try watching it, you'll be suprised. Our heads aren't on the ground, just set naturally. Part of the class has to do with knee and hock action. It use to be Country Pleasure, no excess knee action. Now they move like pleasure horses.

I can't find a good picture of mine, maybe Carin will post a picture of Toy.

Found a picture of Buddy. At one time he was considered a Country Pleasure horse, then all the action started winning. Now this is considered Western.

 

[Al B]

With fear and trepidation

OK, so what have we determined?

1. We don't like the name. OK, as Snakespear said "what's in a name". We can call it "Third Kind of Driving Pleasure".

2. It's not ADS. It follows the existing AMHA rules for cart, harness, etc.

3. It is a whole Division of driving with all the associated classes. That is Open, Amateur, AOTE, Youth. All the height classes and all the other breakdowns. That's a bunch of classes.

4. How will it affect Local, Championship and World shows. Time, cost, etc.

5. Will it bring in more exhibitors.

 

[JourneysEnd]

It seems to be adding entries at the "R" shows.

Horses who are not competive at Country are now showing again in Western.

It does make a show longer with the added classes.

 

[Boinky]

I too HATED the idea of calling it western CP for AMHR. I relise as for right NOW the horses do not look horrible with very low heads and peanut rolling BUT i fear with the name people will drift towards a change. As i recall they said it wasn't even supposed to be "dressed" nessarily like a western rider but many people are. I've also noticed that Lutke even has a WESTERN HARNESS out this year (saw it in this past journal). It's nice but i bet your going to start seeing horses looking more and more wester (ie. like QH movment) because that's what the name suggests. It's such a new class i'm wondering how Western CP is really going to go. it will be intresting to see how it develops in the next few years. Weather it's meant to be that way or not people and judges see the name and think that a horse that moves that way will be more acceptable (and truly with the name the way it is..it probably SHOULD be). I like the "hunter under harness" name or something else that does not send people towards a certain type of movement that they really aren't looking for to begin with.

 

[JourneysEnd]

I too HATED the idea of calling it western CP for AMHR. I relise as for right NOW the horses do not look horrible with very low heads and peanut rolling BUT i fear with the name people will drift towards a change. As i recall they said it wasn't even supposed to be "dressed" nessarily like a western rider but many people are. I've also noticed that Lutke even has a WESTERN HARNESS out this year (saw it in this past journal). It's nice but i bet your going to start seeing horses looking more and more wester (ie. like QH movment) because that's what the name suggests. It's such a new class i'm wondering how Western CP is really going to go. it will be intresting to see how it develops in the next few years. Weather it's meant to be that way or not people and judges see the name and think that a horse that moves that way will be more acceptable (and truly with the name the way it is..it probably SHOULD be). I like the "hunter under harness" name or something else that does not send people towards a certain type of movement that they really aren't looking for to begin with.

Understand what's you're saying. It all boils down to judging. If the judges will follow the rule book, a horse with it's head lower than it's withers shouldn't place. If judges hadn't started placing pleasure horses in the country pleasure class, western would never have happened. Now we have park harness in pleasure, pleasure in country pleasure, country pleasure in westen. I'm more concerned that it will go the other direction.

I like the idea of "hunter under harness" wouldn't that suggest that true collection mattered ?

Maybe we could change the name in "R" .

 

[keely2682]

definately like the "hunter in harness" name suggestion

 

[Boinky]

yep I agree with you on juding. that is what it all boils down to. What the judge likes to see and how they themselves prefer to judge it. The name in itself i think is going to sway judges to pick westerny type moving horses over what it was truly meant for.. QH were never meant to move like that either. A fad started and it got stuck that way. From what i see judges STILL pick horses that move more peanutrolly and lower head than they are SUPPOSED to (rule changed the head had to be level with the shoulder). nothing will ever change tremendously until the judges enforce the rules (or the registry forces the judges to respect the rules). I do feel the name of the class is going to make a huge impact on HOW the horse is shown and moves because people have pre-conceived notions on what these styles mean. I personally do like the hunter idea better..i'm more about collection and if you've ever seen a western horse in harness and your a true driver it would about make you gag! YUCK

 

[Tango]

I have to agree in that the name is going to make or break this new class proposal. And as far as naming classes - where in the world did "Western" Pleasure driving come from? Whenever I hear that I think of stagecoaches! OH! What would one think if a class was called an "Eastern" Pleasure driving class?

Seriously though, the point I am trying to make is that those who have the "vision" for this new class need to really do their homework and name the class appropriately. You want people to have the right "vision" in their heads whenever they hear the name of the class.

Nikki

 

[susanne]

Rather than another class in which horses are checked up or down to create a specified headset, I wish we could have a class that asked for the horse's natural way of going, whether it be high stepping or ground-covering...a class that sought proper frame and head carriage and true collection....a class that rewarded the longterm process of developing a magnificent driving horse, not just a halter class in motion...a class that was based upon actual driving...

Now that would be a carriage driving class, and it would be a beautiful complement to the standard breed show driving classes.

 

[ThreeCFarm]

I COMPLETELY agree with your last two posts, Boinky. You hit the nail on the head.

 

[JourneysEnd]

Rather than another class in which horses are checked up or down to create a specified headset, I wish we could have a class that asked for the horse's natural way of going, whether it be high stepping or ground-covering...a class that sought proper frame and head carriage and true collection....a class that rewarded the longterm process of developing a magnificent driving horse, not just a halter class in motion...a class that was based upon actual driving...

Now that would be a carriage driving class, and it would be a beautiful complement to the standard breed show driving classes.

I'd pay twice the entry fee for a class like that, but we're never going to see it. Actually that's not true. Did see it in Corsicana this March. Judges that understood carriage, frame, collection.

All the classes should be judged as you say. When I watch a CP horse win stakes bouncing so hard the driver is going up and down, what can you say. His head was up in the air, nose pulled in, knees going a hundred miles an hour and both judges placed him.

Wait a minute. We do have classes like that. It's called driven dressage. Maybe that's where we should be putting our entry fees.

 

[choclat dreams]

I compete in CDE's almost entirely. The description that I read did make me think of Driven Dressage movement more so than AMHR shows. I think it would be great if AMHR offered classes so that people who do drive in CDE's would be able to compete in an arena setting. I know that I would be interested if they would offer that. ADS rules do not allow you to wear a martingale or over checks. Just my 2 cents anyway

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I agree calling it Carriage Driving sounds really confusing. Hunter harness to me sounds like jumping in a harness, sorry I'm not from a English background. What about English Pleasure Driving or something?

I am glad to see AMHA is going to add something that the AMHR has done and I really like this class. Here is our National Champion Western Country Pleasure horse, and he is an Under horse so if AMHA adds something like this who knows we may hardship him in.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

OK, here's my WCP horse. B division. No peanut roller here....



Just a nice, low relaxed horse.

Lucy