Alliance Sign on the dotted line

[LittleLottie]

I adore the colour of this boy!

Here's the link http://www.allianceminis.com/stallion.htm

Does anyone have pedigree details at all?? I'm really interested in looking at his breeding and colours throughout the pedigree.

I'm in the UK and can't find him listed on allbreeds.

Thanks.

 

[Ronnie]

They don't come much better bred! He is out of an AMHA World Champion son of Lazy Ns Boogerman and is out of a daughter of Hemloc Brooks Egyptian King.

Below is his full pedigree...

****1***2***3***4***5***6***7***8***9****************************************

| | | | KEWPIES SUN - UNREG.

| | | ROWDY - A 03622

| | | |[05/05/1973 : S : SBA : BT : DC : 34.000]

| | | | UNKNOWN - UNREG.

| | LAZY NS BOOGERMAN - A 05713

| | |[04/01/1982 : S : SCS : BD : - : 33.000]

| | | UNKNOWN - UNREG.

| GROSSHILL BOOGERMANS FINE LINE - A 83760

| |[03/23/1997 : S : SSR : PD : DC : 31.500]

| | | | | | UNKNOWN - UNREG.

| | | | | DELS LITTLE MAN - I 00093

| | | | | |[01/01/1971 : S : RNB : - : DC : 27.750]

| | | | | | UNKNOWN - UNREG.

| | | | DELL TERAS LITTLE JOE - A 05303

| | | | |[06/07/1978 : S : SBA : - : - : 28.000]

| | | | | DELS BOBBIN - UNREG.

| | | PRINCE TENNESSEE MONASHEE - A 05263

| | | |[03/23/1973 : S : PBA : BD : DC : 30.000]

| | | | DELL TERAS JUNE GIRL - UNREG.

| | NFCS JADED LADY - A 23891

| | |[04/14/1988 : M : PSR : DN : - : 32.000]

| | | | UNKNOWN - UNREG.

| | | NFC ROSALITA - A 14121

| | | |[01/01/1983 : M : SSR : - : DC : 32.500]

| | | | UNKNOWN - UNREG.

ALLIANCE SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE - A 140058

|[03/21/2003 : S : ABK : PD : - : 33.000]

| | | | HERCULES VANT HUTTENEST - UNREG.

| | | DELL TERAS GENERAL LEE II - I 00820

| | | |[04/27/1974 : S : SBK : BD : DC : 31.000]

| | | | | NEGUS DE MURY MARAIS - UNREG.

| | | | SITELLE VANT HUTTENEST - R 01631P

| | | | |[05/23/1964 : M : RNB : - : - : 31.500]

| | | | | | IMAN DU MURY MARAIS - UNREG.

| | | | | NIELLE VANT HUTTENEST - R 01621P

| | | | | |[04/12/1971 : M : RNB : - : - : 31.500]

| | | | | | HIRONDELLE DU MURY MARAIS - UNREG.

| | HEMLOCK BROOKS EGYPTIAN KING - A 04550

| | |[03/04/1980 : S : DGR : BD : - : 31.250]

| | | DELL TERAS LADY OF SPAIN - UNREG.

| NFC EGYPTIAN KINGS STARDUST - A 46450

| |[04/03/1992 : M : SGR : DN : - : 32.750]

| | | | GERANIMO - UNREG.

| | | CRESCENTS SIDNEY - IT00154

| | | |[06/15/1977 : S : SSR : - : - : 29.000]

| | | | | BLACKIE - UNREG.

| | | | STRAWBERRY - I 00479

| | | | |[04/17/1974 : M : SCS : - : - : 29.000]

| | | | | | UNKNOWN - UNREG.

| | | | | CHOCOLATE BABY - I 00472

| | | | | |[01/01/1967 : M : SBR : - : - : 32.000]

| | | | | | UNKNOWN - UNREG.

| | DELL TERAS STAR DUST - A 06369

| | |[03/24/1983 : M : SSR : BD : - : 32.000]

| | | | | UNKNOWN - UNREG.

| | | | DELL TERAS JIM DANDY - A 05315

| | | | |[07/13/1972 : S : ANB : - : DC : 31.000]

| | | | | UNKNOWN - UNREG.

| | | DELL TERAS LADY E - A 05431

| | | |[07/07/1978 : M : RNB : - : - : 33.000]

| | | | DELL TERAS TAMMY - UNREG.

****1***2***3***4***5***6***7***8***9****************************************

Total AMHA Registered Horses: 20

Highest Generation Level (Registered Horses): 5

 

[hairicane]

Geez I had never really looked at the pedigree. Where are the appys? LOL, Im just guessing but his dam must be a grayed out appy. All that color has to come from somewhere.

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

I think the dam has to be where the appy comes from because I know I have seen pictures of most of the horses on the sires side and they are all pintos or solids as far as I remember. It is kind fun to know his pedigree though because I just bought a mare that is very similarly bred as he is she is Egyptian King and Rowdy on the topside too!

 

[Littleum]

The appy comes from Dell Tera's Jim Dandy (who was very likely the sire of Orion Light Van't Huttenest according to JC Williams) through Stardust.

Dell Tera's Stardust was an amazing producer with a long list of successful and stunning offspring... check out her production list. You'll see her most often in the pedigree of the Glenn's General Patton horses, as she's his paternal granddam.

 

[hairicane]

Yes I saw Jim Dandy was the only listed appy in the pedigree so I knew it had to come down through him. And I saw some others listed as roans so were possibly minimal appy. I had not heard Jim Dandy was likely Orions sire, very interesting. Always wondered who his sire was. Thanks for posting!

 

[iowa]

Hi. Orion is both AMHA and AMHR and according to the AMHR studbook his sire is Del Terra's Buttons. Don't know if he was appy or not, but that is what they have. That's also what is on the pedigree site at

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/orion+light+vant+huttenest

Del Terra's Button is listed as brown.

Alliance Sign on the Dotted Line is on this link at the Pedegree webiste

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/alliance+s...the+dotted+line

 

[Littleum]

Hi. Orion is both AMHA and AMHR and according to the AMHR studbook his sire is Del Terra's Buttons. Don't know if he was appy or not, but that is what they have. That's also what is on the pedigree site at
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/orion+light+vant+huttenest

Actually, unless something has changed, in the AMHA books his sire is listed as unknown. You should never trust pedigreequery 100%, as anyone can go in there and put anything they want.

JC Williams and I spoke before he died, and I asked him about Orion- he said his sire "had" to be Jim Dandy, since he had no other appaloosa stallions at the time. Now take it for what it's worth, of course. There's no way we'll ever know for sure.

 

[iowa]

Yes, anyone can put anything on the all pedigree site, but the AMHR studbook has Del Terra's Little Buttons as Orions sire and if J. C. Williams was the breeder, he must have signed a Breeder's Certificate to get Orion registered with the AMHR. He should have put the correct sire on there if he knew it "had" to be Jim Dandy. Wonder why he didn't. If he was hardshipped into AMHR he would have also been unknown as is shown on the AMHA papers. Just making a point I guess. I wonder if they really wanted to know if they could do DNA tests as Orion has a lot of offspring out there and maybe Jim Dandy does too, and Little Buttons, and they could do some camparisons. Just a thought. They should as there are a lot of horses with faulty pedigrees if Orion has the wrong sire listed.

 

[CLC Stables]

Iowa,

Playing devils advocate here. What if Little Buttons adn Jim Dandy are the same? I am not sure if Jim Dandy was R registered under his name or not, so this is just keeping us thinking. Since both registries maintain seperate Studbooks, are the same horse with different names in each registry?

 

[iowa]

Could very well be the same horse I suppose. As someone said, you can post anything on All Breeds Pedigree and they do have a picture of Buttons as a solid brown horse and of Jim Dandy as an appaloosa. Wish J.C. Williams would have clarified it all before he died by correcting Orions registration. Maybe Roy Brewer knows why the correct horse is not listed as Orions sire if, in fact, Buttons was not his sire.

Wonder why nothing was done when the breeder was still alive fix the papers? I suppose too many horses had been sired already and it would have been a nightmare to fix all of them. DNA is the only way and there are markers so they can trace back many generations to determine relationships. Would't work too well I suppose if Buttons and Jim Dandy were closely related!!

Don't know and don't really care. Maybe way back when the registrys were first getting started they didn't require better records. Maybe Mark Verhaeghe or Tony Greaves could shed some light on this. Mark named and I assume foaled Orion and Tony Greaves was with Vern Brewer when they finally purchased him from Mark. They might be able to explain why he has a sire listed on AMHR and none on AMHA. My guess is that he was first registered with AMHR and then hardshipped into AMHA. I don't have access to both stud books to see when the registration dates were. Maybe someone out there does.

 

[ohmt]

Way back when people were ALOT different with breeding and record keeping and such. People would run multiple stallions with mares. Some breeders would just guess when the foals were born as to who the sire was and some would lie. Some were honest and would put UKNOWN. That's why there are a lot of older horses with a dam listed but not a sire. Back then, records were really not a big thing to people because the registries had just opened. Who knows what happened with Orions papers, but if his breeder says he's pretty sure the sire was Jim Dandy, I bet the sire is Jim Dandy! I also bet you that 3/4 of the registered miniature horses out there have false lineage on their pedigrees so having the wrong sire listed for Orion in AMHR really isn't that big of a deal to me. There are few grandget being bred now-most are great grandget and furthur on. Most people don't look past the great grands anyway

 

[Littleum]

It's my understanding Orion was first registered with the IMHR, which merged with AMHA. AMHA accepted IMHR's papers. I would imagine Orion's AMHR papers came along at a later date.

Don't know and don't really care. Maybe way back when the registrys were first getting started they didn't require better records.

Bingo.

The AMHA was open until 1987 (or was it 1985? Anyway...) Meaning any horse that was 34" or under could get papers. Not having supporting paperwork was not a problem. So yes, when you're looking at the really old pedigrees from that time, you need to keep an open mind. There ARE errors. Some have been caught, more probably never were. Things were different and it's not fair to judge how things were done by today's standards

Even mares that were over 34" could get papers- they were classified as "FOUNDATION/OVERSIZED" up until... 1988, I think? I think they're in the studbook was "F/OS" Blood typing was not required until the mid 1990s, and only under certain circumstances (I think if a stallion bred more then 5 mares or something like that)

Here's one to contemplate. Until about 1994/1995, FWF Legionare was credited as the sire of NFC's Sugar Boy. Legionare is/was a homozygous tobiano, Sugarboy is solid. There is *no way* Legionare could be Sugar Boy's sire. Of course back in the 1980s there was no tobi test (heck, they didn't even KNOW about a T/T) In the 1990s Sugarboy was DNA tested as a son of Roan Ranger. Looking back with our 2010 knowledge it's obvious, but back then (and while I was pretty much a kid, I was around Miniatures in 1991) it really wasn't.

 

[HGFarm]

Buttons was absolutely solid colored... and Jim Dandy is a very loud Appy that roaned out even more along with his spots. They do not appear to be the same horse according to the pics. Their body build is not even the same, or their heads, etc...

I had also heard that Jim Dandy was possibly the sire of Orion- he had to get his Appy from SOMEwhere....

I knew Dotted Line didnt have much Appy, but didnt realize it was one horse. However, he does have some pretty nice all around breeding, along with some Shetland lines in there.