Adding AOTE or splitting Amateur AMHR

[sdmini]

Just curious to see what everyone opinions were.

Splitting the Amateur classes will give some breathing room for the newer exhibitor but will not exclude the horses that are handed off from the trainer to the Level 1 or 2 exhibitor. I've noticed more and more trainer horses in Amateur classes in the past few years. The same horse can compete in Amateur level 1 as well as Amateur level 2 with a different handler.

Adding AOTE will keep out the trainer conditioned horses and anyone else that uses non-family members to condition or prep their show horses. Policing it is difficult and has to be run more on honor system then anything. Already there are some eyebrows raised by a AMHA AOTE exhibitor showing horses for someone else at AMHR Nationals.

Keeping it the same has it's benefits and it's costs. Either above option will add something like 42 classes to Nationals, that's more than a day. On the other hand there are plenty that growing tired of getting swallowed up by the vastness that is Amateur classes. Few classes are larger than Amateur. Amateurs endure no height breaks as well as no age divisions for the Jr horses. I've watched plenty of horses get the gate in Amateur that went on to win Grand or Reserve in their Open division with their trainer on the lead. That's how tough amateur is, a huge compliment not a complaint.

There is no sour grapes, no wailing to the bleachers here. I've placed in both Amateur and Open (and AOTE) and was thrilled. It was just a curiosity thing more than anything....granted if I can make the poll thing work.

 

[sdmini]

Whoa

Guess it may not have been the best time to post this poll.

 

[valshingle]

I really like your penguin avatar, lol

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I think it's a great time for this poll! A sane, polite, interested discussion of the options is always a good thing.

I voted for adding an AOTE division for several reasons. First of all, I tend to think it's more realistic from a registry paperwork standpoint as no one would have to keep track of the number of points being earned, who belongs in what level, who should move up when, etc. You'd just double-check that anyone entered had signed that piece of paper at the beginning of the year committing to the rules and deal with any complaints of violations, which is going to happen with any amateur division including the one we have now. Second, and I'll admit my reasons here are biased, I'm one of those people who gets sick and tired of being beaten by trainer-conditioned and schooled horses that got handed to their amateur owners at the gate. I don't mind competing against so-called "professional amateurs" as they put in a ton of work and can be beaten if you put in as much work as they do, but I do resent getting beaten by someone who did NOT put in that time. (Now I've been at this long enough that I often don't get beaten by those horses anymore, but I remember what it felt like!

)

Level 1 and Level 2 still work very well and I'd be happy with that but my personal vote would be for AOTE as a win there would mean more to me since it doesn't mean I'm up against other novices but simply other people who've done it all themselves.

Leia

 

[gvpalominominis]

I'd rather vote for a "Novice" class...and its for people who have not shown before, not just never shown in amateur. Then based on a number of years... say 2 or 3years and/or based on a maximum points earned before having to move up to amateur. This class could also be limited to non pro trained horses also. But I'd also like to see AOTE classes. I guess I'm torn. = )

If the classes are not "required" class, a club would be able to poll their exhibitors for interest and provide those that would have entries. They also don't have to be broken out into the sex classes for every division. Even if the class is in the class list, it doesn't mean it'll have any entries especially in smaller populated show areas. We have fairly large local shows here in the NW, but there are still empty classes... they take up more space on paper... but not necessarily time during the day.

 

[JWC sr.]

I voted for the level one and two, but would like to have added another class for each of the sexes(horses), in that I would love to see a new comers class specifically for folks that are in the first year of showing.

Personally I have never really liked all the rules and questions raised by the AOTE classes, but that is just me. Either way would be fine!!

Inclusion is a great thing and we should do what we can to provide an atmosphere that is conducive to that end.

 

[Robin1]

Personally I would like to see both a split for a level 1 and level 2 amateur classes and

AOTE classes like AMHA has. I still like to show in open , when I can, but it does give the newcomers an easier start.

Robin

 

[kaykay]

I voted level 1 and 2 and have been pushing for this for years.

Over the years I have helped a lot of new people start showing and I see the frustration when they find out ammy doesnt mean novice it only means you dont take money to train or show horses. They do get frustrated showing against people that have been doing this 20 or 30 years and they quit showing.

I want to keep them in and interested as its in all of our best interest. If they stay showing we have bigger local classes and eventually they buy a show horse etc. Its good for everyone.

I gave up my ammy status this year so dont even show in ammy but I want to encourage and keep these new people going.

Our current ammy program is just too easy to cheat. Over the years I have seen many that just mark up the price of the horse (to include training and showing) to get around the payment rule.

I dont think new rules help as cheaters will always cheat, but we have to give these novice people a better place to start.

I have said for years I can give a novice person a National champion horse and they could easily get the gate. Not because the horse wasnt good enough but because they dont have the skills yet to show that horse to its best advantage.

 

[~Lisa~]

No way no how would I ever support AOTE it is impossible to police and comes with some very harsh rules many do not understand. Having someone transport your horse.. having someone do a facial for you.. those things can take you out of the running for that class.

I would be more in agreement with maiden class for thse who have not yet won a national title easy to police and a more level playing field

 

[JMS Miniatures]

At this time I honestly am not sure what I would vote for. But I think right now we need to add other things before adding a whole new division. JMO

 

[sdmini]

I picked AOTE, to me it embodies the true nature of AMHR, the do-it-yourself-er. The rules always seemed pretty straight forward to me, hands off for everyone but you and your family. You can have someone else transport the horse but a facial is a no-no, defeats the purpose of a do-it-yourself class.

As the hunt for titles has gotten tougher I've seen more and more trainer horses and big breeders swoop into amateur. There was a time when you hardly ever saw a trainer or trainers horse outside of open but even color has gotten thick with trainers.

This isn't a bash on trainers, if your getting paid to do a job your horse should be, on average, fitted, groomed and trained better.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I picked AOTE, to me it embodies the true nature of AMHR, the do-it-yourself-er. The rules always seemed pretty straight forward to me, hands off for everyone but you and your family. You can have someone else transport the horse but a facial is a no-no, defeats the purpose of a do-it-yourself class.

You can take lessons with your horse, work other people's horses to learn, etc., but the horse you're showing in AOTE should be presented and handled without a trainer's help. Seems straight forward to me!

Leia

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

I voted for Level 1 and 2 because I have been to one AMHA show now and I liked that division a lot. I would have liked an option for 1 and 2 AND AOTE! I realize AMHR already has a owned bred and exhibited class but the AOTE class would be nice too.

 

[Mominis]

I'd rather vote for a "Novice" class...and its for people who have not shown before, not just never shown in amateur. Then based on a number of years... say 2 or 3years and/or based on a maximum points earned before having to move up to amateur. This class could also be limited to non pro trained horses also. But I'd also like to see AOTE classes. I guess I'm torn. = )

If the classes are not "required" class, a club would be able to poll their exhibitors for interest and provide those that would have entries. They also don't have to be broken out into the sex classes for every division. Even if the class is in the class list, it doesn't mean it'll have any entries especially in smaller populated show areas. We have fairly large local shows here in the NW, but there are still empty classes... they take up more space on paper... but not necessarily time during the day.

Agree

 

[HGFarm]

I kind of think a novice division and then an ammy division would be nice.

 

[O So]

I really like your penguin avatar, lol

LOL, Sorry for the off topic, but I got a kick out of your avitar too!! Too funny!!

 

[targetsmom]

I don't show at the big shows, but I have shown in local (unrated) mini shows, AMHA, AMHR, and lots of Pinto Shows. I have shown both AOTE and Level 1 Ammy in AMHA.

My personal experience with AOTE is that I love the concept, but I will not show in it any more. I usually have barn helpers that are interested in learning all they can about the minis - including getting into showing - but I cannot use AOTE minis for this purpose. In addition, we use our minis (yes, even the show minis) for after school programs, 4-H groups, and field trips for the Equine Science classes at the local Ag High School and find that the AOTE rules are too restricting for those activities.

My experience this year with AMHA Level 1 was very enlightening. I know people who will just about stop showing when they advance out of Level 1, and before this year, I could certainly sympathize. Then I started showing Max, our home-bred yearling stallion that was co-owned by Kristina Slobody. At our very first show, Max was shown only by a youth (in Open) and myself, a level 1 Ammy who showed him in that class and all the Championship classes. Kristina was busy with other horses, including 2 2009 AMHA World Champion stallions. Max ended up Grand Champion Junior Stallion under the World judge, Reserve Champion under another judge and was Reserve Champion Amateur Stallion under all three judges. Of course he didn't do that at every show, but he held his own and capped it off with an Ammy Supreme at an even bigger show, with me showing him against all those Level 2 Ammys'. (And Kristina got to win a Supreme with him too!). So I learned that a Level 1 Amateur can compete against the more experienced competitors, and when you do win, it is the BEST feeling.

I also show Pinto, where until recently all our classes were open. But I feel like the competitors - even the pros I show against - are "people like me", which I think is really who people want to show against. I want to go in the ring and figure I have a chance to win, but that it isn't a sure thing. One huge factor is that there are at most 2 halter classes at our New England Pinto Shows, so you won't find anyone bringing large show strings. And everyone enters performance classes - lots of them.

IMO the best way to get the newcomers involved is to have some type of Novice Classes at the local shows. The Northeast Miniature Horse Club does this a bit differently and runs "Mentored Beginner" classes where a more experienced person (usually an Ammy) will be assigned to each beginner and be there in the ring to offer suggestions (but not touch the horse). Some of our clubs have offered a Novice Supreme award that is similar to whatever the open Supreme is at the show. But any way it is done, it is a great way to bring new people in - at least in a normal economy.

 

[Kitty]

I have always thought AOTE is a great option but there are ALOT of amauters out there placing high that will still be there showing against you. We train and show our own and are always learning but it would be a nice option for the new people just starting out that can't afford trainers. Of course ANYONE that wants to have a clinic on razoring LET ME KNOW. I'm TERRIBLE at it and unfortunately going to have to learn

 

[minih]

I voted to leave the line up the same. If you give ribbons to every one you possibly can by adding more classes what is there to strive and improve for? Work hard, go in the arena, get your placing, if you are not happy, go back home and work harder.

 

[sdmini]

Sorry for not getting back to this thread sooner.

I feel those that are wanting a novice class instead are splitting hairs here. How do you define novice? Usually the easiest, most universal way, is to do so by a point system, same as ranking for Amateur levels 1 and 2.

AMHR's class of Bred, owned and shown is nothing like AOTE. Any person, trainer or other wise can enter this class as long as they meet the bred/owned/shown criteria.

My personal stake in this is nil, I would not qualify for a Amateur level 1 class. Those that think I'm adding a "purple dress class" so that everyone wins, bluntly put, can not see past their own nose. I come from a family who had the family motto of "suck it up" so I don't want a ribbon for everyone. What I want is a place for those that are starting up or just wanting to try a bigger bite at something to have some footing. Our local exhibitors have have increased our skills 10 times over that of just a few years ago. We went from one family presenting at a National/World level to several presenting at a National/World level and winning. While that's great the majority of our local shows have taken a huge hit, our numbers have been cut by 1/2 or better. If you get the gate, get the gate, get the gate, it's not fun and very expensive so most will quit going. On the other hand if your given a opportunity to shine you want to keep that feeling and will try to come back better than ever. That may mean more diligent conditioning/grooming or an upgrade in stock.

With that preachy paragraph said I don't foresee this for the majority of shows, adding that many classes would be a burden to most. It would be a major undertaking to add them Nationals, absolutely there would have to be some trade offs made. Supporting our greenest exhibitors does not guarantee that they will go onto bigger things but I've seen what neglecting those exhibitors does.

As for my penguins, I dearly love my penguins.