A Trainer Holding and Amateur Card

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DiamondJohn

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Recently a WIFE of a very known professional trainer/handler, whom she is also considered to be, showed in Amateur classes at an AMHA sanctioned show (she has a level 1 card). In order to rec. an Amateur card an amateur status form has to be signed stating that she qualifies as an amateur. Which means that she hasn't shown clients' horses in the past five years. However, she did show clients horses last year, including at the World Show! On all advertisements her and her husbands names are listed.

Because of who her family is and threats that might/have been made this is being allowed!

If you hold an amateur card and feel that this is abuse of the amateur rules contact AMHA via letter or e-mail (contact info at www.amha.com).

All concerend members need to make sure that AMHA and their Directors know how you feel. Is it fair to allow someone to get away with breaking the rules because of who they and/or any threats that they might make?

This is not just sour grapes as I do not have to participate with her and my horses have beaten her in open - I just feel that this is severely against the rules!!!

Don't forget this is a Level 1 Card!!!

John
 

Vertical Limit

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DiamondJohn said:
Recently a WIFE of a very known professional trainer/handler, whom she is also considered to be, showed in Amateur classes at an AMHA sanctioned show (she has a level 1 card). In order to rec. an Amateur card an amateur status form has to be signed stating that she qualifies as an amateur. Which means that she hasn't shown clients' horses in the past five years. However, she did show clients horses last year, including at the World Show!  On all advertisements her and her husbands names are listed.
Because of who her family is and threats that might/have been made this is being allowed!

John

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Hi John,

Glad you reposted this and worded a bit differently. If what you are saying is true.......and I really don't doubt you ........... you are totally right and this needs to be stopped.

Now this is my post from the pony Forum I have grown up listening to the whole trainer wife of husband thing not being fair. But the fact is that just because the spouse is a trainer it does not make them a trainer too. I have seen some pretty awful amateur handlers whose spouse has been a trainer. On the other hand some good ones too.

I said:

If the rules state that a spouse cannot show a client horse in a five year period and they do and still show Amateur........of course it is wrong. But if the spouse has not showed a client horse, they are abiding by the RULES it is not a problem.
I show Arabs and plenty of trainer spouses show horses. As long as they don't work or show the client horses it is fine. Many people don't like the rule, but I find it sour grapes. They do have one big advantage.....................they don't have to pay for a trainer.....................LOL!

Believe me.........if the people that complained had a spouse that was a trainer you would see how fast that person would change his mind. Being married to one does not make you one.

Bottom line............a Rule is a Rule.
 

Becky

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If the wife of the trainer is being advertised as one of the trainers, then yes, I would have a problem with her showing as an amatuer.

If she is simply a spouse, then I don't have a problem with it. According to the AMHA Rulebook, a trainer is a person who has accepted money (remuneration) for training, showing, conducting seminars, judging, etc. An amateur is a person who has not done any of the above within the last 5 years. The complete rule can be found in the 2005 AMHA Rulebook on page 114 Rule AM-010 Requirements.

I train and show for a living and my adult daughter shows as an amateur. She is a college student and even when she is home, has virtually nothing to do with the training horses. Heck, you mention stall cleaning and you won't see her for days!
She shows not only our own horses but occasionally leads client horses into the ring for not only myself but others as well. She is not paid to do this and she has every right to maintain her amateur status.
 

Tony

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Thank you so much, Becky, for your answer. The key words are "accepted money, (remuneration). Helping show client horses does not negate amateur status, but being paid to do so does.
 
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Vertical Limit

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Tony said:
Thank you so much, Becky, for your answer.  The key words are "accepted money, (remuneration).  Helping show client horses does not negate amateur status, but being paid to do so does.
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Well, you learn something new everyday. Yes, I agree that the key word is accepting money. But I had no idea that a spouse (or family member) could actually show client horses in AMHA shows and still be considered an amateur. (as long as no money changes hands) And I have to admit that I forget that AMHA is not governed by the American Horse Show As. so I just assumed what the rule was. My mistake.

Well, that changes things a bit for the original poster.
 
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FairytailGlennMinis

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So if the husband gets the money for both horses and they each take a clients horse in the ring....and that is okay??? Hello? Same bank account and they are each doing the work. So....if only one is the PAID trainer than all is well, yes? Wink wink, nudge nudge. That is a bunch of bullcrap! I am SO remembering why I prefer to just do open shows or Pleasure Driving shows. This is a lot of the reason I quit showing big horses 15 years ago...and I was doing well too, so no sour grapes there. I just got sick of watching newbies crushed under the wink-wink "loopholes".

If they are both advertised on the training card and known for taking horses then dammit, move aside and let the really ammy's go in that class! Sorry, this stuff really burns my buns and frankly it is a disgrace!

-Amy
 
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Millstone Farm

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I typed out a long response on this when it was originally posted, hit "add reply," only to have the topic locked and my reply POOFED!

My feeling is, and again, this is only my feeling, if the training of mini horses is the SOLE source of income for the household, then no one living in that household should qualify as an amateur. Why? Because the training of horses is what is paying the bills, so whether or not the spouse or significant other is actual "trainer," all adult members of that household are still making their living off of horses.

If the wife/husband/significant other has another source of income and does not participate, then welcome to the amateur division!

One of last year's amateur grands was the partner of a very successful trainer. When that person won, it was a wildly popular choice, if you listened to the audience's response.

If you don't like the way the rules are written, then WRITE a rule change proposal.
 

susanne

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Where do you draw the line in something like this? I have a feeling that wherever it is drawn, someone will be unhappy.

My question is, at least in AMHR, I thought that if an amateur such as myself were to show a horse registered to someone else, that I would have to have leased the horse? That's what I was told, and since it hasn't been an issue, I haven't really looked into the rules, but if it is true, how could said wife take a client's horse into the show ring, even if she is considered an amateur? Are the rules different in AMHA on this?
 
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Jacquee'

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I don't know the exact rules for either AMHA or AMHR. All I can speak about is the "husband/wife" thing.

Now, I don't show.... that's why I don't know the rules....... but I _USED_ to train horses professionally, 20 years ago. I had to give it up due to a knee injury. I qualify for amateur status, since I have not been paid for 20 years. (Way past the time limit.) Now, I will be the first to admit that I am skilled at handling horses, yes..... but my husband????? Despite being married to me for 18 years, and my having horses the whole time, and my trying to teach him, he will STILL do silly things like giving a horse too much lead rope, like about 10', and get upset when it jumps and plays around. When I say "Shorten the rope!" he will say, "I KNOW!!!" but yet he STILL does not do it........
SIGH. Just because one person has the skill, that does not mean it is automatically given to the other person. Turst me....... anyone would be THRILLED to show against my husband, it is practically a guaranteed win!!!!
So just because the husband (in this case) is a pro, it does not mean the wife necessarily has a clue!!

However, if BOTH are being advertised as the trainer, then _YES_ - that needs to be stopped. If she actually trains, then she should not have an amateur card.
 

Millstone Farm

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I also think in the long run, it will do more harm to a professional handler PR wise, since it may create ill-will among future clients -- the very people they hope to attract someday. If the amateurs feel they are being driven out of the amateur ranks, they'll just stop showing altogether. Bad for the pros and doubly bad for the registries.
 

hairicane

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Like several others have posted the 1st thing I thought was so the trainer has your horse at the show, the horse is bathed, groomed, made up and then the non pro spouse ends up showing it. So then the Trainer doesnt CHARGE the owner for anything at all that day just because the actual trainer didnt show it??? I dont think that would EVER happen and we all know it!!!! The OWNER does end up getting charged.
 

nootka

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While I don't doubt that the spouse of a trainer could be very inept at showing and be an Amateur in the true sense of the word, there are other things that rankle me about this:

If they ARE an amateur, then as has been mentioned, is the client getting a "break"? Did they agree to this beforehand (the non-pro handling of their horse)?

Also, the horse has the same conditioning and prepping, etc. as if the trainer showed it, so there is not a lot of difference, there.

I would hope it would not happen in AOTE, but I am sure it could/has.

*shrug*

I do disagree w/them having an Amateur card if they are the sole proprietors of that training business, but hopefully, with AMHA's system, they will at least be moved up to Level 2 before too long so the true beginners don't have to deal with them.

Liz M.
 

Karen S

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Good Morning,

I would like to address your Amateur concerns...

First: AMHR, A horse shown by an Amateur in AMHR classes must be Owned or Leased by the amateur or the family of that amateur.

That is why it is so important when filling our your show entries that if you are the owner of that horse and your grown daughter (who is married and has a different last name) is handling that horse in an amateur class, that you list her FULL Name so that I will know if she is a family member and that her name is listed on my amateur roster.

I have been watcing and reviewing this year's current AMHR Amateur show results (since it's printed on line) to be sure the horse/handler is correct.

Note:

We will have a some updates to the current amateur rules that will be very indept in regards to husband, wives and significate others of trainers that I think everyone will be happy with. These are being presented at the 2005 Convention and will be voted on. If passed in committee then the BOD will review and put their stamp of approval on. Then those updates will go into effect January 1, 2006. Watch your Journal for the convention highlights.

Please, if you have any questions regarding the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR Amateur program you can drop me an email. Thank you.

Karen Shaw

Chairman

ASPC/AMHR/ASPR Triple A Amateur Program

Email: KShaw1077@aol.com
 

Margo_C-T

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I am not going to comment on this thread at this time, though I will say that I find this a compelling subject. To Karen Shaw: when this thread arose, I went online to both registries' rulebooks, to check out the exact wording of their rules(as I was 'surprised', to put it mildly, by what the AMHA rules were stated to allow...yes, talk about 'learning something new every day...'); however, Page 41 of the AMHR Rulebook, which appears to contain the major portion of their Amateur rules, simply WASN'T THERE. I scrolled VERY slowly and carefully back and forth a great number of times(as I know how precise one has to be to get some things to appear on Acrobat-compression, I presume?)-but page 41, which was listed in the Table of Contents as where the Amateur rules began, just didn't exist!! Do you have any idea why this is? Also, doesn't AMHR have a rule that spouses, etc. of trainers CANNOT show as Amateurs? I did find the statement that to show "in AMHR classes", that the horse had to be owned/officially leased by the Amateur or their family member...which, I will say, is what I believe is as it SHOULD BE-and certainly, IMO, an area where the AMHR has "got it right"!
 

Cathy_H

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We will have a some updates to the current amateur rules that will be very indept in regards to husband, wives and significate others of trainers that I think everyone will be happy with. These are being presented at the 2005 Convention and will be voted on
Thanks for the update. I have seen in the past an example of the above.. The client may not have given money directly to the amateur but I've heard the amateur tell the trainer spouse, "I'll show their horse if you will buy me this or you will have to pay me $$$". It does happen........... And no that amateur did not get their own horse conditioned & show ready for the amateur classes either. EVERYTHING was done by the trainer spouse.
 
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Karen S

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Hi Margo,

If you will email me privately I will be happy to mail you an ASPC/AMHR/ASPR Amateur Packet will all of the Amateur rules that are current so you will be up to date. Thanks.

Karen Shaw

Chairman

ASPC/AMHR/ASPR Triple A

Email: KShaw1077@aol.com
 

bob r

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JUST MY VIEW ON THIS SUBJECT; IN THE EARLY 90'S MY WIFE DECIDED TO TRAIN A FEW HORSES FOR CLIENTS, THE CHECKS WERE WRITTEN TO HER BUT

THE MONEY WENT INTO OUR BANK ACCOUNT! I USED IT JUST TO PAY BILLS ETC. SO I BELIEVE ALSO THAT THE WIFE/HUSBAND/SIGNIFICANT OTHER SHOULD NOT HOLD AN AMATEUR CARD, THIS INCLUDES CHILDREN THAT ARE OVER THE AGE OF 18 AND LIVE AT HOME.
 

Karen S

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ASPC/AMHR/ASPR 2005 Rulebook:

Page 33...Section III...General Rules

Part 1 Definations start on page 33 and to page 34

Amateur:

Regardless of one's equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur for all shows conducted under ASPC/AMHR rules who after his/her 18th birthday has not engaged in any of the following activities, which would make him/her a professional.

A. Accepts remuneration for riding, driving, showing in halter/in hand, training, schooling or conducting clinics or seminars.

B. Accepts remuneration for giving instruction in equitation or hrose trainin, (Persons acting as counselors at summer camps, who are not hired in the exclusive capacity of riding instructors, are excluded, and persons giving instruction and training to the handicapped).

C. Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (i.e., secretary, bookkeeper, veterinarian, groom, farrier, and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows in halter/in hand, trains, or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her when his/her employer or member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, owns, boards or trains said horses.

D. Accepts remuneration for the use of his or her name, photograph or other form of personal association as a horseman in connection with any advertisement or article to be sold.

E. Accepts prize money in equitation or showmanship classes.

F. Rides, drives or shows in halter/in hand, in competitions, any horse for which he/she or a member of his/her family or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, receives remuneration for boarding, training, riding, driving or showing in halter/in hand.

G. Gives instruction to any person, or rides, drives or shows in halter/in hand, in competitions, any horse, for which activity another person in his/her family controls will receive remuneration for the activity.

H.. A husband, wife, or significant other of a professional trainer may not hold an amateur card, effective show season 2004.

The following activities do not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise qualified.

I. The writing of books or articles pertaining to horses.

J. Accepting remuneration of officiating as a Steward, technical delegate, course designer, announcer, participating as a TV commentator, or accepting bona fide remuneration for services as a veterinarian, groom, farrier, tack shop operator, breeder or for accepting bona fide remuneration for boarding services.

K. Accepting reimbursement for expenses without profit.

L. Accepting a token of appreciation, other than money, for riding, driving or showing in halter/in hand. (Note: Horse board, prize money, partial support or objects of mare than $300 are considered remuneration, not small tokens of appreciation.) (Also note,: accepting any amount of money, whether more or less than $300 is considered remuneration.)

M. Having the occupation of veterinarian, groom, farrier, or owning a tack shop or breeding or boarding stable in itself does not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise qualified.

Part 4 -Amateur page 41

A. Official ASPC/AMHR amateur cards are required to participate in ASPC/AMHR/ASPR amateur classes. Amateur cards must be applied for annually, and expire on November 30th of each year. Amateur applications must be 18 year old or older and a current senior member of ASPC/AMHR. Application can be made through the ASPC/AMHR Office for a $5.00 fee. Exhibitors are responsible to present their amateur card to show management.

B. Individuals without amateur cards in hand on show day, amy apply for an amateur card through the show office or with the Show Steward for a $10.00 show-site fee. All show-site applications and appropriate $10.00 fees must be received prior to amateur classes entered, in order for the individual to be allowed to show. Show-site amateur appliction will be valid for 15 days fro the date fees are received by the Show Steward or show management. All Show-site applications and fees will be sent to the ASPC/AMHR Office via the Show Steward with their official Steward's report. If an amateur card is lost or forgotten, a new amateur application and fee is required.

1. No ASPC/AMHR/ASPR carded Judge may show in amateur classes at ASPC/AMHR/ASPR sanctioned shows.

2. A horse shown by an Amateur in AMHR classes must be owned or leased by the amateur or the family of that amateur.

3. Classic/Foundation, Modern and American Show Pony divisions: Ponies shown in amateur classes must be exhibited by an amateur exhibitor.

4. Amateur Incentive Classes: The person showing must be the owner of record on the registration papers.

5. In order to be eligible for the Amateur Award of excellence, the horse or pony must be owned by the amateur and/or the amateur's family.

Section X Amercian Miniature Horse Registry

Part 2 Eligibility for Exhibition in AMHR Classes:

Page 234:

F. "Amateur" must be 18 years of age and older and a current senior member of ASPC/AMHR. Amateur cards are required to show in Amateur classes.

Definations:

Family:

For show purposes the term "Family" includes husband, wife, parent, step-parent, guardian, child, step-child, brother, half-brother, sister, half-sister, aunt, uncle, niece, nephew, grandmother, grandfather, grandchildren, step-grandchildren, and in-laws of the same relation as stated above.

Karen Shaw
 

bob r

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F. Rides, drives or shows in halter/in hand, in competitions, any horse for which he/she or a member of his/her family or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, receives remuneration for boarding, training, riding, driving or showing in halter/in hand.

doesn't this apply to anyone in the family?
 

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