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a "known" bloodline, or a new one?

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Ouburgia

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When I first got into miniatures I was very fond of the "known" bloodlines like Buckaroo.

Now if I look, it's seems like almost everybody has a buckeroo (example).

I'd rather go for something new now..

What would you do?
 

muffntuf

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If it was my breeding program, I would look at the conformation of the horse and work towards the goal I am planning for. If a Buckeroo trait is something I need, I would look for a way to incorporate that. But if you look at pedigrees, where did Buckeroo or other well known lines come from? Most often from unknown lines.
 

Ouburgia

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I see it here in the netherlands with the warmbloods.

Gribaldi is a very popular stallion, but I would never buy a gribaldi just becouse "everybody has one"

Know what I meen?
 

Jill

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I have a lot of Buckeroo here, but picked the horses because I liked them, not because I like what's on their papers.

If you have to tell someone "why" a horse is great, it's not. But it is fun to have nice, well bred horses.

Remember also that many, including myself, feel that the Buckeroo line is prepotent for certain traits and you can see it on down the line in the good horses.

If looking for a new horse and I found two I liked equally as well (which is not likely), I'd go for one with the well known / desirable bloodline.
 

Becky

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I've never been a follower when it comes to breeding horses. I look at the horses as individuals and breed what I like. I breed for loud pinto color patterns with animals that are conformationally correct. I'm a real stickler about quality and type no matter the bloodline. I try to look outside the box and apparantly it has worked over the years. I'm now breeding a number of 'Redrock' horses.
 

RockRiverTiff

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While the horse itself comes first, I think that bloodlines can be a good indicator of what to expect in the way of production. Obviously if the horse itself does not have the positive traits you want, then it is unlikely to reproduce them no matter how well it's bred, but alternately it is possible to get a great looking horse out of less than stellar parents only to have it pass on those recessive traits.

Like everyone else here, I choose horses that appeal to me first and foremost. But I also do a lot of research on bloodlines. Just because a bloodline is less known does not mean that it is unproven. Plenty of people that have been breeding for decades don't show, but I don't need a title to tell me that their horses are good when generation after generation clearly is.
 
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faithfarm

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Buy conformation on the horse first, then bloodlines; color doesn't hurt either. Even the best "bloodlines" give you horses that shouldn't be bred. A quality horse can start his own bloodline. That said, consistency comes from a well-known bloodline, so that you can expect certain traits when bred the right way. I have a lot of well known bloodlines in my herd but no Buckaroo; not on purpose, because he has done a great job and has sired some great horses. It just so happened that when I was in a buying mood (which is rare) I always found something else that I liked a little better.

If you're not sure what good conformation looks like, go to some horse shows and when you can consistently pick the winners, THEN go shoping. And try to look at grandparents, grandma usually shows up on the babies.
 
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susanminiponygirl

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I guess there are two ways to look at it. When I am shopping for a horse, I let the horse "speak for itself". I have bought some beautiful mares, with no great names in their pedigree, that have thrown gorgeous babies that sold well.

That said, a lot of people like to buy a horse with a name behind it, knowing that they will pass on certain traits, hopefully. It helps to be able to fit the horse to the owner. If you want a driving horse, you look for the parentage that will produce that movement. Halter horse?--you want to see a background of nice heads, etc. in their pedigree. Name recognition can be a big draw for buyers.

I think you have to be able to have two sets of eyes, one as a buyer, or one as a seller. Their are alot of nice horses out there, and you should go with your need, not just with the name. IMO!
 

LAD

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I've never been a follower when it comes to breeding horses. I look at the horses as individuals and breed what I like. I breed for loud pinto color patterns with animals that are conformationally correct. I'm a real stickler about quality and type no matter the bloodline. I try to look outside the box and apparantly it has worked over the years. I'm now breeding a number of 'Redrock' horses.
I'm with you Becky. I also decided to "look outside the box". When I started breeding minis in 1988 I decided to to focus on a different type and color of mini. Especially when I realized that overo patterns were extremely rare in 38" and under horses. According to many old-time breeders overos were practically non-exsistant in a 34" and under horse, that is, until LTD's Magic Man was born on my birthday in 1990
 

Leeana

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For the most part, i think each bloodline has a certain look to it. I for instance completely adore the BTU line, which is from the buckeroo line.

When i look at a horse to decide if i would like to buy it, i look first at the type ..before i even look at conformation i want to make sure that to me i like the look of the horse and the "type", then i look at conformation, if i feel it couldnt hold up as a breeding / showing animal due to the conformation, i pass. If i like the conformation im seeing on the animal, and the type, then i look at bloodlines. Bloodlines are important, but conformation and type are #1.

I'd rather have a correct horse then have a not-correct horse and have to rely on his/her bloodlines.
 

Miniv

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I think Leeana put it very well.

When I walk into a pasture of someone's farm I notice which horse catches my eye first. Then, I evaluate its conformation.......and if it's good, I ask the owner about the horse's pedigree......in that order.
 

Leeana

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When I walk into a pasture of someone's farm I notice which horse catches my eye first. Then, I evaluate its conformation.......and if it's good, I ask the owner about the horse's pedigree......in that order.
Exactly , conformation is #1 but the horse has to have something to catch your eye. I recently visited a farm to look at some fillied, i didnt just walk out in the pasture and start evaluating conformation right off the bat on 10 - 12 babies. I found the ones that cought my eye and were my "type", then looked at their conformation. I always say "hey, i like that horse", then go over conformation, then look at the dam / sire and ask about their breeding and show history too. Its worked thus far for me too
 
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bingo

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I think now there is so many good horses out there a person can have it all.. There is no longer anything "rare" in or about miniature horses. If I want appy, overo, pinto, palomino heck even champagne there is more then plenty out there to choose from.

The key is to take your time, find what you like not only in one thing like pedigree or color but in everything from training, color, conformation and pedigree.

Buyers can now expect the complete package !
 

Riverdance

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To me bloodlines mean nothing!! I go for the conformation of the horse. Many top horses out there today came from no bloodlines at all: Sids Reble is one example. The exception would be a performance horse like Rhotens Little Dandy. His bloodlines are well known for driving horses and are still today producing World and National Champion driving horses.

There are many high stepping horses out there, some World and National Champions, that can not reproduce themselves. This holds true too for the halter horses. It is one reason why I do not go running to buy the get of the latest and greatest. I want to see how they produce and perform first. I have seen many a World and National Champion who can not produce his way out of a paper bag.

Unless a horse is line bred, their traits will not continue in a hodge podge breeding program. Line bred horses are ones that have common ancestors repeated in their pedigrees. If you have a line bred horse, he/she will be more likely to reproduce the traits that you like in the original horse. That is unless they are so highly line bred that they are producing all of the traits that one does not like!! Remember line breedig can ba a good thing as well as a bad thing. unless you know what you are doing, you can reproduce all of the bad traits in the line and end up with short, pudgy, thick necked beasts.

A good promotional program , like the Buckaroo lines, went a long way towards helping you sell your foals in the past, I am not so sure it holds true today. "Everyone" has buckaroo now. I think I am one of the rare ones that does not own buckaroo as there are traits in that line that I personally do not like. Before you all get upset and feel that I am putting Buckaroo down, I AM NOT, I just have never been fond of the line.

So I will continue to breed for the traits that I want on my horses: Long, slim, up headed necks that need little sweating, a good shoulder layback that comes out of the shoulder rather than the chest, Very pretty heads with big doey eyes, long legs, refineness, high tail sets with large deep hips, and a level top line. It takes some time to get what one wants, but my breeding stock was bought for these traits in mind and not for what their pedigrees are.
 

JWC sr.

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When we are considering adding another boodine to our herd we consider quite a few things. First of course is the horse in question(conformation etc), then the crosses we intend to make with that horse and then we look at the bloodines. In that order.

Not every bloodline cross works and you really have to do your homework and either know or find someone that knows what that particuar bloodline has produced before. That goes for nationally known bloodines and small breeder bloodlines alike. With a little homework and even a small sampling of resuts you can usually see a trend. :DOH!

Let me give you an example Fairy Tail Prince produced some nice horses but never anything like himself. But his daughters have produced some really extra nice horses. they tend to not be the best looking in a herd but they produce extremely well. I got a chance to buy two of his daughters and would not part with them for love or money. They are not the prettiest in the herd as I said before, but boy do I like the resuts we are getting. You woud have to know that about his daughters are you might pass up a real find.


Also realize a stallion can't do it all himself. So many times I have seen folks spend a lot of money on a stallion and then never spend the time picking the right mares for him. Then they aways blame him when he was bred to insufficent quality mares in the first place.


One other thought with starting any new boodline and/or cross is the marketing value that you have to do yourself if offspring from your breedings are not something that potencial buyers can identify with. :DOH!

A perfect example of this is when we bought "WF See Me Shine" a General Patton son that is a full brother to Spectacular Bey that Martha Hickham had for a number of years. He has produced well for us and actually out produces himself. (he was 3rd out a class of 45 or so a number of years ago). We do not have to promote him near as much as some of our other stallions as most show people have seen and read the advertisements for the "Patton Dynasty". That is money I do not have to expend and can apply somewhere else.


But with all that said, we personally really enjoy doing things outside the box a little and try to achieve a certain look and consistency in the look of our babies. that is the fun in the breeding aspect of this deal for us. There is nothing more satisfying than to have a foal from your horses in the show ring from horses that you bred, raised and then bred in the second or third generation of bloodines all your own.


Cindy has always said that she sells the best she produces in order to have other folks enjoy the product of her breeding program as much as she does. She really seems to enjoy other folks showing her horses more than when we show them. A little wierd I guess, but then again she woud have to be to live with me for all these years. LOL

Good Luck whichever way you go.
 
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love_casper

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I'm with you Becky. I also decided to "look outside the box". When I started breeding minis in 1988 I decided to to focus on a different type and color of mini. Especially when I realized that overo patterns were extremely rare in 38" and under horses. According to many old-time breeders overos were practically non-exsistant in a 34" and under horse, that is, until LTD's Magic Man was born on my birthday in 1990
Wow! What a great story, I've always wondered if frames were prevelant before LTDs. I adore frames.


Anyways....... I agree with most of the people on here in that you should judge the horse itself and bloodlines are not quite as important. I don't own a Buckeroo, although it does seem as if "everyone" does. Because I like being different, I wouldn't look at a horse purely for being related to him. But if I saw one that I liked, his name on the paper wouldn't make me not want it. There have been absolutely beautiful horses with pedigrees that I didn't even know a single name on it. I have also seen direct Buckeroo children I didn't like.

Nowadays there are so many horses (soooo many minis especially - it's one breed where "everyone" who owns one becomes a breeder eventually!) that you really can put in a specific order and find exactly what you want.
 

disneyhorse

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Honestly it doesn't matter to me WHAT bloodline a horse has as long as I like the horse itself. That said, many horses nowadays have SOME sort of "popular" breeding behind it so to me I prefer to have the whole package. Bloodlines don't always make the horse, but they ARE something that people are going to look at if you resell the horse or try to sell its offspring.

Now, to me, I don't know what you are referring to as a "known" bloodline but personally I stay away from "older" bloodlines. Yes, I have seen minis with Bond or Komoko or other older bloodlines but that doesn't mean much to me. I like to show, so I want a horse that has the most modern, winning bloodlines behind it. Buckeroo is now an older bloodline but his get are still winning and staying contemporary in the showring so that is okay to me.

Not every new Grand Champion stallion can produce himself, but he most likely has genetics closer to what the judges are looking for than an older style mini with "known" bloodlines might have.

Andrea
 

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