Too small to breed?

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Blackwater Farm

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I saw a listing for a miniature mare for sale that stated they were selling her because she was "too small to breed". She was listed at 28.75" as a 3 yr old. There was nothing listed as to the size of her sire or dam so I dont know what she would top out at. Is this too small for breeding? I wasnt interested in purchasing her, just out of curiosity. Thank you!
 
I don't breed minis but I do know a couple breeders that have smaller mares they use to breed. It depends on what you're breeding for (if you're a large A/small B program that breeds driving horses then she would be too small for you) and how wide/big her hips/other structures are (maybe her hips are too narrow to safely pass a foal?). I've heard foaling gets more risky the smaller the mare is, so that could be their reasoning too but like I said before, I've known breeders to breed smaller (the under 28") mares
 
a few years ago (when I was new to breeding minis) I bought a 28"-29" mare already in foal , she had a badly positioned foal and there was so little room it was impossible to correct , the foal died and the mare ended up having a C - Section , happily she did survive but the poor foal died , the little mare suffered the loss of her baby and great pain and I got a huge bill - I learnt the hard way ....NEVER AGAIN ! Its like a time bomb sooner or later the mare will have problems and Im not prepared to take that risk
 
I breed mares from 28" to 34". I've not had any more trouble with my small mares than my taller ones.

A mare may be too small for one persons' breeding program, depending on the direction they are wanting to take, but just the right size for someone else.
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we have quite a few 28-29" mares and have no more problems with them than my taller girls. Actually, I've had less trouble with them than my tall girls over the years. I always wait until my smaller girls are at least 4-5 years old before I breed them for the first time, then I make sure they are wide enough in the hips and have enough substance to support a foal. I have a 2 yr old mare who will top out at about 28.5" and I don't know if she'll ever be able to foal safely as she is so refined and narrow. Then I have a 28" mare that's given me foal after foal no problems that I don't worry about at all. She's refined too, but she has substance and good wide hips. So, it depends on the horse. With the horse market the way it is, i'd rather not breed a mare that would make me worry for 11 months...no matter how good she is.
 
Okay, I am not a breeder by any means, but have been blessed with surprise packages from Mares we have purchased.

I remember someone saying the reason most small mares have difficulties giving birth is because they are bred to a stallion bigger than them are, which in turns makes for bigger foals and that the trick to breeding small mares with less difficulties is to bred them to stallions smaller than they are. Any truth to this breeders?
 
Interesting topic.

Personally, I have found NO difference in ease/difficulty of birthing in my mares as it relates to their height. I have foaled out mares from 29" to 34" and although my 29" mare did have difficulty once, it wasn't due to her "size" as she was actually my easiest foaler (has now been sold). The difficulty was due to the foal having a deformed front hoof so getting past that was somewhat more difficult for her, but she did it herself! Just kept rolling until she got that baby where she wanted him and then out he came!

My personal belief is that each mare is different and you can't make generalities when it relates to height - because I've just heard too many stories that contradict the common "myths." Regardless of height, if the birthing canal is too narrow, there will be problems. I do agree however, that IF there is a problem, you may have less room with which to move things around inside on a smaller mare.

As for the height of the stallion, I believe that also is not nearly as relevent as his bone structure. Is he refined and/or his babies refined? Then it wouldn't worry me. If the mare is 28" and the stallion is 34" and stocky and thick - well I wouldn't breed those two.

I'm currently looking for an outside stallion to breed to a 28" mare in 2011. The bone structure is WAY more important to me than his height. But...I did have the mare internally examined prior to deciding to breed her. A mare can look like she has a "good hip" on the outside, but things can still be tight on the inside. The exam doesn't guarantee me anything, but does help me in my decision-making process.

And as others have said.... If your goal is high-stepping, pleasure driving horses, then most wouldn't come from a under 30" horse. Some have, but most are from the taller, leggier stock imo.
 
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It has less to do with the size of the stallion as to the type of foal he produces. If he produces fine boned foals and is 32" he would be fine to breed to the 30" or under mares. I have a 29" mare that has had three foals by two different stallions both around 32" and all three foals were very easy for her to have. There are some stallions that are under 30" but so heavy boned that they wouldn't be safe to breed to a small mare either. So while under 30" mares do need more thinking about what type of stallion you breed her to, they are still able to foal easy when bred to a stallion you know produces finer boned babies.
 
Thanks everyone for the info. I couldnt really see much of how the little mare was built because she was all hair in her pictures. The ad stated that they were selling her as a "pet only" because she was too small to breed but I thought I had seen mares before that have safely birthed foals and have been between 28" and 29". She is only 3 years old so she still may grow a bit more right?
 
At three years old all my Minis are finished, so anything after that would just be either putting on topline, or "creeping" on maybe half an inch.

I always allow for the difference between American and European horses in height, due to the difference in our measuring, but I will not breed from any mare under 30", which if you put that at 29, possibly 28" American you would be about right. So, I have two fillies I am selling as "not for breeding" right now, one is 28" at three going four, and the other is 27" at two going three, even though both these fillies is fairly well built, I just do not think it is worth the risk. I, too, lost a little mare due to a dystocia, it was just impossible, and that was mainly because there just was no room for manoeuvre in there. This mare had foaled successfully two times before and the foal that killed her was tiny and thin boned, it was just dead, and therefore did not help with the subsequent foaling at all. Sometimes whatever precautions you take, the outcome is dire, and, with a bigger mare, with room inside, I do feel the mare might have been saved. Her cousin, who is three inches bigger, lost her foal due to some flaming gypsies chasing her, but the Vet was able to turn that foal and get it out, and the mare has foaled agian, since. But she is 31", and the amount of elbow room inside, though tight , was acceptable.

It is a judgement call, I feel, people know their own stock and they know what sort of emotional stress they can cope with.

At the end of the day, I say "no, it is too small" someone else will say "yes, it is fine"

So, it just depends on which of us is selling the horse!
 
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yes the mini in my post was 28"-29" at the withers so smaller than your 28" mini but with so many fabulous minis out there why take the chance
 
The person may have meant to small for them to breed? I don't know. I've sold horses that conformationally weren't sound IMHO to breed (at different heights), but height alone has never been an issue.

Parmela said it all on how I feel about the height/structure of Minis.

The worst foaling issues I've had to date have been mares in the 32-34" range that have resulted in C-section or a mare being put down or a dead foal requiring fetotomy to remove the fetus. I've lost foals from the under 30" ones, but nothing has come close the a couple of the horrific ones we've had over the years all with the taller mares.

What I've seen over the years, with a dystocia, the sooner you can intervene the better, and even then it can still be alot of work. The uterus basically starts to shrink-wrapping down and you have very little manipulation room. If you have vets attending, they can infuse fluid back in to help lube, making manipulation easier. Mares that are roomy (having had multiple foals helps a bit), but in all honesty I've been the gambit from fully sedated mares that could not have the foal repositioned, to delivering at home foals with a leg back, hip locked, dog sitting/upside down, etc.

Here's a good article (scroll to the bottom on dystocias) Equine Pregnancy

Any mare you're breeding is at risk of losing a foal or dying. Thoughtful stallion selection is important and most of my mares do not get bred until they're four or five, the smaller ones five is the earliest.
 
My smallest mare is 31.25" tall and is a 2005 model fully grown and she is the smallest mare I will ever breed. She spits out the foals easily but boy does she have some hips.

My smallest stallion is 28" and is a 2008 model and pretty refined. I purchased him to be a size reducer with my mares and also throw color.

My mares range in height from 31.25", 32.5", 32.75", 33.5" & 34" and that's the size I like them plus they all have some bone substance to them. My stallions are 28", 31.75", 32.5" & 33.5" and all are refined.

If someone were to offer me a mare under 31" I would pass because for me it is too small. I breed for performance horses and the smaller under 30" horses just aren't my thing.

Everyone is different and that's what makes breeding minis great.
 
I think it depends on the build of the mare, and the build of the stallion, not the height. Some 28" minis can be built like absolute tanks. I would evaluate her type and build, and if I decided to breed her, would not focus primarily on the height of the stallion, but on his refinement.
 
I would have agreed with you, Jill, before I lost Mia.

She was a real "leg at each corner" mare, had had two foals (to bigger, less refined stallions) and then caught a severe chill and the afterbirth detached, so, dead foal!

This foal was minute It is pretty near impossible to measure a dead foal realistically but, having been there for both her previous births I can tell you this one was way smaller!

But, it was dead.

A dead foal does not aid parturition.

Mia was 28" stretched, she really was pushing the limit, and I was there from the first contraction, so, attended birth, and I phoned the Vet as she went into labour as I could feel we were in trouble. In the end we had FIVE Vets on the property as the whole surgery finally dropped in to see if they could help.

By this time it was too late for a C-Section, the mare had had it, and yes, the cost with such a poor prognosis did enter into it, I admit.

So, yes, weight of the mare and weight of the stallion do come into it, but they are not the only factors.

One of my tiny mares, well, she couldpossibly, foal successfully, but I would rather not take that chance, and it is my call.

I found it easier, for my peace of mind, to just not continually push the envelope on size. You are just as likely to get a tiny foal from a tiny, fine, stallion and an over 30" mare, so why take the chance with an under 30" one??
 
I found it easier, for my peace of mind, to just not continually push the envelope on size. You are just as likely to get a tiny foal from a tiny, fine, stallion and an over 30" mare, so why take the chance with an under 30" one??
I completely agree!!!!
 
Could it be that there is no real physical problem with her foaling, but the current owner simply does not feel good about it?

I would contact the seller and ask why she feels this way. As stated before, the mare may be too small for THEIR breeding program, she could be too small for their stallion(s), or she could be too small for her comfort. Perhaps her dam had problems, or something has happened to make the owner worry.

I would also ask how she feels about others breeding her -- if she has a reason for thinking she's too small for breeding, I would respect her wishes and not buy her with the intention of breeding. I would hate to sell a mare that I felt was not suitable for breeding, only to have a buyer go ahead and breed her. While the seller loses the right to decide, I would still hate to see this happen.
 
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