Really scared for my "babies"~Slept fitfully last night and

[CAM]

We are closing on our new property this week and last night we were invited to the seller's home (will be our new home in 4 days) for a going away party for the sellers and to meet our new neighbors. We had a great time and the kids got to meet some of the neighborhood kids too. My concern is that when we were having conversations with the current owners and some of the neighbors, we got to talking about the predators in the area (coyotes, bears, cougars, etc.).

The property is 460 acres that is fully fenced although 6 buffalo were eating off the front lawn last month so the fencing may not be fully intact.

: Aside from the buffalo "problem", people were talking about the coyotes that roam there nightly and come in very close. The seller's even mentioned how one time he watched a pack of coyotes luring his dog off with them and were circling him (picture a pack of hyenas and you will get the picture). He had to get a shot off in their direction to scare them off or well, you know, the dog may not have made it back home.

Then a neighbor spoke of seeing a cougar walk nonchalantly across the road this past summer. It stopped and stared at the neighbor, then continued on its way. Didn't appear to be leary at all. He said this was the ONLY time he was without his gun on one of his walks. He never walks the main road without one!!

I might mention the house we are buying is about 1/2 mile off the main road and most of the neighbors have really large properties so no one is ultimately very close to each other. The road leads to Wildcat Campground which sits at the base of Wildcat Mountain. Hmmm...wonder why they named it that? This all leads to forest service and BLM land. We are surrounded by trees and meadows.

So, the problem is that we are moving from a fairly safe 5 acre parcel to a large piece of property with bears, coyotes, cougars, etc. and I have a real fear for my animals safety. We have been looking into Anatolian Shephards as well as other livestock guardians and different fencing options. This is all new to us and I was nervous enough about it that I slept very fitfully last night thinking about my "babies". We are thinking that 5 ft no-climb horse fence would be a good idea with some hotwire on the outside for predators and maybe the inside if we get an Anatolian. We will be cross fencing near the barn which fortunately, is right off our back yard about 150 ft or so.

I would like to get your ideas from your experience because I am extremely nervous about bringing our babies there. I have them boarded at a friend's until we can get adequate fencing up. We also wanted to look into goats to roam the rest of the property and eat down one of the noxious plants as we are told they are the best for that however, last night we were told they would become sacrificial goats. I'm sorry, but I just can't do that to the goats in good conscience.

Any help or ideas for fencing and protection would be greatly appreciated!

 

[irishmini]

move to ireland quick!!!!

good god,!! as if theres not enough problems without having to worry if a big cat eat

ingyour babies.........

sorry i am of no help at all to you... but i just couldnt imagine living in an environment like that..

good luck!!

 

[Ashley]

Keep a gun handy. We have coyotes, bear, and cougers here as well. Lets just say some of the coyotes have made it to the end of the line when they come up as close as they do.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Electric fencing on the outside seems to be a pretty good idea- can you do that???

You need deterrents rather than trying for a fence that is "-proof"

Bells on the tape, too, I know Bears do not like undue noise and shy away from it.

If at all possible I would aim for an outer fence and an inner one- the thing that always bothers me - and I have nothing larger than dogs, horrendous though they can potentially be- to worry about but I do worry about fencing too small an area for the horses- fencing a horse into a tiny area is adding to the possibilities of attack, I believe- if the horse is fenced in too tight it cannot get away.

Is it possible to shut them up at night- most predators are nocturnal??

 

[nootka]

I know the territory you speak of, and I myself live in a similarly populated area. Our 15 acres adjoins thousands of acres of county-owned as well as privately owned (major logging and timber organization, Weyerhauser) wilderness. This is mostly forest land with some clearcut areas in the process of growing back. We know many who hunt around here and they have sighted bears as well as mountain lions just over the ridge. We've also got tons of coyotes.

We have those light-triggered sodium-vapor yardlights for one. We usually have at least a dog around (we are dog-less right now due to losing a longtime love and still hurting for him, hard to buy a new guy or girl when you feel so traitorous about it), and I put mine inside the barn at night.

My preference, in your type of climate, would be to have them out all the time, enjoying life with run-in sheds. But given the situation, it might be nice if you could get them up near the house at night with a lighted area and/or the predator wires and maybe have the guardian dogs in an area that surrounded the night paddocks and/or barn.

Now here the bears and mountain lions, coyotes, would far rather remain out in the forest than confront us, so we rarely see them from the house, and I would be inclined to shoot one that came too near for my horses' sake as well as for my children's sake (I have two children under 5).

I have lived 11 years here on the edge of the forest and so far, so good. The ONLY problem I have ever had was a neighbor's "dog" (use that term loosely as she was a chain-crazy 15/16ths wolf/GSD, who NEVER got off her chain and the one time she broke it, she came after Gramma Pony, who was then in her 9th month of pregnancy w/Cherry Bomb). The coyotes and such they run through our property on their way to their hunting grounds and I often hear them, but they have never been close enough to see them from our house.

There is a certain amount you CAN do, but I am thinking it shouldn't be that terrible of a problem if you take some precautions, unless you run into an exceptional animal (bear, cougar, coyote pack, etc.) that really has a taste or need to get into your stock. It happens and there's lots of reasons, but hopefully you can find out what your animal control/OSP/ODFW officers will do for you if you encounter such.

Good luck and let me know how it goes. That wire Joanne runs is a real deterrent, you might ask her the particulars.

Liz M.

 

[sedeh]

We have some of the same concerns here even though I only have 5 acres the coyote packs come in close...have eaten many of my neighbors chickens. It's hard when you have that many acres because you'd like to be able to run your horses on them without worrying. But ranchers that run cattle/sheep have a certain percentage of loss to predators. If goats are "sacraficial" I can't imagine that the horses would be much better. If it were me, I'd have a perimeter fence to help keep out critters. Then I would set up my horse facility closer in and fence off smaller pastures that you can rotate them through. I think your idea of fencing with the hot wire is good. The Anatolian shepard is good too. My friend in Calif also runs Llamas with her minis as they're not "in sight" all the time. Unfortunately having a gun handy is probably a necessity. We have more problems with dog packs in our area than the other predators....though my next door neighbor's dog got attacked by a bear(which also sent one of my horses through the fence.....luckily no major injuries). I'm reading my response and I realize I haven't done much to alleviate your fears. I think all we can do is set things up the best we can and be vigalant. Often problem predators are sighted and a heads-up is given to the neighborhood. Good luck with your new place.....it is beautiful from the pictures I've seen before.

 

[CAM]

Yes Jane, we can definitely put hotwire up as needed as there is electricity at the barn and we do plan on making some larger pastures for the horses to have lots of room. We really need to cut back some of the grasses and see better what we have to work with. We have the room to make large pastures but I fear putting them too far away. We will have to fence for our larger horses and pony, for our mini mares and stallions, as well as drylots so we can rotate as needed.

How effective are the Anatolians when all the horses are segregated like that (i.e. stallions, mini mares, Arabs, etc.) with cross fencing in between? Has anyone had better luck with something else? My husband is afraid the Anatolian will scare off the elk and deer and we have four Land Owner Preference tags for hunting which he intends to use right on the property.

Does everyone like the no-climb horse fence or do you have other ideas for keeping horses safe and predators out? We figured we would use standard T-posts and get the caps to cover the tops for safety and possibly down the road put in the round wood posts for better stability when the money is there (they cost 2x as much).

Liz, I wasn't as concerned about the predators with the horses close to the house/barn until I heard some of the stories last night. Yikes! We have a friend that is with the Oregon State Police and we will also check with the Oregon Dept of Fish and Wildlife as you mentioned. My husband has no problem shooting a coyote or cougar if needed but he is out of town for work so much I guess I will need to take matters into my own hands. My husband has a cougar & bear tag but I do not. Guess it's time to change that. Although I am not a hunter and tend to dislike the thought, I wouldn't stop at protecting my kids and animals if needed. :new_2gunsfiring_v1:

Edited to add: Thanks Sandy. I definitely won't be running the horses on the whole 460 acres. I'd never find them! :bgrin We will be making smaller pastures but have to weigh the size of the pastures with how far away that puts them from the barn and house. We will have to get creative. Heck, if the panic doesn't settle I may end up putting them in the yard! It is too big for me as it is with that white vinyl fencing around front and back. Would have to double fence then as it sure wouldn't keep a cougar or coyote out as is.

:

 

[spazkat]

My husband is afraid the Anatolian will scare off the elk and deer and we have four Land Owner Preference tags for hunting which he intends to use right on the property.

Seems to me that almost anything designed to keep out the predators will have a similar effect on all other wildlife. Sensor activated lighting, hot wires, dogs, llamas... none of them are really going to discriminate between an elk or a bear, and things that "scare off" predator type animals will probably have an even greater effect on the "prey" animals such as deer and elk.

 

[CAM]

My husband is afraid the Anatolian will scare off the elk and deer and we have four Land Owner Preference tags for hunting which he intends to use right on the property.

Seems to me that almost anything designed to keep out the predators will have a similar effect on all other wildlife. Sensor activated lighting, hot wires, dogs, llamas... none of them are really going to discriminate between an elk or a bear, and things that "scare off" predator type animals will probably have an even greater effect on the "prey" animals such as deer and elk.

Just wondering if you were to keep the Anatolian confined with the horses rather than running with say, goats on the rest of the property, I wonder if the prey animals would be less likely to fear the bark over time? I feel pretty certain if the dog had free roam on the entire acreage he would keep EVERYTHING at bay but we can't do that as we have three other dogs too and we think the Anatolian would be more effective in the smaller pasture areas with the horses.

Also, I was at the house for the first time last night while it was dark out and noticed there is sensor activated lighting out front. Knowing these sellers, there is probably lighting like that all over. They are quite the computer savvy, electronically minded people. There are some really strange gadgets inside and outside that house that I'm sure I will NEVER learn how to use.

:

 

[outlawridge]

Your new place sounds beautiful and with the proper precautions you should be able to sleep soundly at night

: We moved from a ranch that was bordered on three sides by 85000 acres of national forest and the fourth side was a 7000 acre cattle ranch. Coyotes were rampant and a huge nuisance in the area plus the occasional mountain lion and wolf. I always put my minis inside a secure barn at night and never had any problems during the day when they were in pasture. Our fencing was five foot high horse fence and the ranch had two dogs that were wonderful.

Since then we have purchased land that is 1.5 miles off the gravel county road and inside a 600 acre parcel of wilderness that is inside several thousand acres of cattle and graze land. There are many sitings of cats from large bobcats to mountain lion plus lots and lots of coyotes. In fact, driving there, my husband nearly hit a huge lion with the car who proceed to jog in the field next to him quite arrogantly without a concern in the world :no: Naturally, this has all been of the utmost concern regarding our precious kids too. What we are installing is a minimum of five foot high horse fence with a hot wire at the top and extended outward and another near the bottom and extended a bit outward (to prevent digging under). We also have donkeys and will have one or two dogs. Our electric fence is solar, and it is awesome. We use the Gallagher hi tensile electric fence (it's very tough and strong) and also their solar fencer which is very dependable. It can operate up to a month in total darkness after a charge and we can regulate the quickness of the pulse and the intensity of the charge. If you go to their web site, they have diagrams for predator control fencing options for installation and types of chargers to use.

My beloved dwarves will be in small pasture surrounding the house (I don't want lawn, just mini munchies) and all the minis will be in the secure barn overnight.

Where the minis are now is my friends lambing ranch. There had been lots of predation by coyotes and bobcat. However my minis are in horse fence of five feet there too and now the ranch has two pups which are Akbash/Pyrenees cross as guardians. They are wonderful with the horses and fully respect them when they enter the gate with me.

But I should also mention that what has given me the most peace is prayer. I know my big horses which are already out there are protected and that we have chosen the correct combination of fencing and that my babies will be protected as well.

:

:

Good luck with your new home, it sounds like my kind of place to live.

 

[Jill]

We do not have any of those kinds of animals close to here, but I can imagine how scared you must be! It actually made me gasp when I read "cougar".

What about a donkey and or llama? I know those can be good guard animals and maybe easier to get quick than a dog? Maybe like a combination of some donkeys, llamas and LGD is a good idea?

 

[RNR]

I would be putting up a 8ft or taller Chainlink fence around like 5 -10 of that !! If it was not to expencive or something so no criders could get in near your horses and posible Goats!

RNR

 

[YHFF Miniature Horses]

I know exactly how you feel! I have over 120 acres for my minis to wander on. However, plenty of other animals wander there too! One day, IN THE MIDDLE of the DAY I saw a large mother bear with 3 cubs walking through my horse pasture, while my minis were out! And as luck would have it the minis, unknowingly were heading for a direct course with the bear ! So, I of course jumped the fence and ran a quarter of a mile to where the minis chased them in another direction (don't you just love it when you call them and they won't cooperate

: ). At this time, I was about 200 meters from the bear who was standing up and glaring at me. A very dumb move on my part as I was in the middle of a 4ft tall hay field. As you may know, it's very difficult to run in high grass and I fell a number of times while fleeing to catch up to the horses and reach the safety of the barn. Thankfully, the bear never followed me or the minis, because it could of been very ugly. I've seen this bear again one other time since then. Needless to say my minis come in to either stalls at night or are shut in the barn yard (which is very secure and safe from animals on the outside), with shelter and a light pole. We have six pastures, four smaller ones (roughly 200' by 200'), three of which surround the barn yard pasture. Then we have two Enormous pastures which make take up about 75 acres. These pastures have a barbed wire perimeter, as our land was initially for beef cattle, and it was the most affordable, thus the bears easy access to the pasture. So my minis, since the bear incident have been temporarily banned from the other areas. The other pastures are either sheep fence(big round wooden posts with metal posts in between) or boards. However we hope to divide the 2 bigger ones into 7 or 8 smaller ones with lots of electric fencing. (I'm not a fan of barbed wire when it comes to horses, even though my minis don't bother it, in what little time they have spent in the two bigger pastures). We have coyotes too and they've released six pairs of mountain lions in our area. They also killed over 20 coyotes just in my town last year. I've been lucky so far, but I don't anything for granted. Best of luck to you, we have dogs and it seems to help. The best thing to do is just put up the best possible defense system that you can think of. It seems like you have some great ideas, I may borrow some

: ! It sounds like you've found a wonderful place to live, best of luck with all of the animals, I hope I haven't rambled too much!

Courtney

 

[ChrystalPaths]

I live near Courtney and we do have bears and coyotes and sometimes stray dogs. I got a jack russel male. Jack is the best guard dog ever! He sleeps on my porch in heated comfort with about 6 barn kitties and if something comes near he sounds the alarm. This allows me to get my gun and check things out. I love him, he's already chased the bear away 2 times! I haven't seen hide nor hair of a coyote, fox, skunk, opossum or raccoon since he came. My kids do come in at nite but during summer my big barn doors are open and they still could be vulnerable especially to the new cougars roaming but I keep a radio playing 24/7 and have nite lites in the barn and big ourside lites also and of course good ol Jack. Just a suggestion.

 

[Stacy Score]

Debra

Phil & SHari Washburn live in So Oregon on a very large piece of property also. Even fenced they had predator problems with coyotes, bears and cougars. Their solution was an Anotolian in with each bunch of horses and a smaller fenced enclosure w/covered "barn" type arrangement (say 100 x 100) that they bring their horses & the dog into each night when they feed. I believe that this has been a satisfactory solution for them, but it is labor intensive as far as making sure each horse is in the enclosure each night. When out during the day each "herd" is in roughly 10 acre parcels with a dog in each parcel - yep they have about 7 Anatolians, but after losing 3 fillies in one year it has been well worth the "investment" - you might want to call them to find out a bit more about their set-up.

Stacy

 

[CAM]

Thank you! You guys are really helping me out here with ideas. I have heard lots of people say to go with at least the 5ft no climb fencing but there is the option of the 6ft. Is it necessary as we know the fencing and subsequent posts then cost more? And I will look up the Gallagher website too to see their recommendations and will make a note to talk with the Washburns about their sucess with the Anatolians. And that bear story was sure scary! Yikes! The cougar story sure sounds reminiscent of what I heard last night at the party too. Many of them seem aloof and no longer startled by our presence. Here in Oregon we voted in 1994 to outlaw cougar hunting with dogs so our population has skyrocketed in recent years.

At our current home we only have four big stalls and the horses are out with shelters 24/7 unless foaling, etc. The new property has a barn with stalls that we could make into probably, 7 stalls I think. We have some repairs to make and some changes but it could be done. I have 6 minis and the larger horses could stay out but be brought close to the barn with shelter at night. And I definitely like the idea of lights and music. I will make a mental note of that. You guys are great! I am a little less nervous but now anxious to get over there and get started.

I don't think I can swing that many Anatolians ($1100+ each) at once but that was what I was wondering about with the horses separated by cross fencing. So, each area needs its own dog and the dogs then do ok and don't get upset with so many other guard dogs in close proximity? It seems to me there would be a competition between them. Do they just need to be raised together? In other words...I have to buy all 7 at once?! :new_shocked:

My other question is about using donkeys and llamas. Can anyone tell me about what they are best for? It seems I had read certain guard animals were more suited for guarding certain livestock vs. other. Do you have experiences you can share with me? Care is also an issue. Which are easiest to care for?

 

[outlawridge]

I'm so glad that you feel a bit better and I understand you being anxious to get over there and get started

You've been given lots of good advice here. Regarding the livestock guardians, we use standard sized donkeys. The mammoth jacks are just too big for the minis IMO. A mule of large pony size can really do wonders too. Donkeys and mules are not very tolerant of strange animals in their area. My female donkey simply purposefully and on a mission, walks at the intruder. If they don't head out she'll take off after them and believe me, a mad donkey is not something you want to be in the way of!! I have heard people have very good luck with llamas but I also have heard they are many curious and come in with their head low. This has sometimes resulted in llamas that have been severely injured in the face and throat. I chose donkeys becuase they just get down right mad and don't hold back any ultimate Jackie Chan type moves and kicks :lol: A mule is unbelievably fast with their hind feet and can kick in any direction with them at warp speed. On the other hand, the donkeys are usually lower on the totem pole than horses, even minis and I have found this to be true in mine. My female standard is quite a bit larger than my minis and she has never once offered a kick or bite or anything aggressive in their direction. Even a colt can turn her away from a select morsel of food.

I would like to add that I would not have just one donkey or one of any type guardian as they can be easily outnumbered by several coyotes. There have been quite a few large dogs lost to coyotes. They are so smart and my sister has a friend that lost three shepherds in one summer, one at a time, to a group of coyotes that had a deadly game. A lone coyote would come into the dogs view, drawing the dog out, it would then be circled by many more and killed. Coyotes DO kill for sport. When our place is all said and done we will have lights, secure barn overnight, two trustworthy dogs, one mule and two donkeys.

also meant to add that there are other very good breeds of livestock guardians although the Anatolians have been very popular. We have been looking into the Kuvasz. I like their style of guarding, usually running at the predator and bowling it over with a huge blow. If by the third time the animal does not leave, then the Kuvasz kills it, and yes, even lions. Prices on them can also be expensive.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

We don't have anything like bear, but we do have fox and coyote and the occassional stray dog. We use standard hot wire, the tape kind around or big horses but for the minis we use the 5ft no climb horse safety fence (the kind with the red line at the top) and used 4x4s to anchor it. In addition we got a Great Pereynese (I don't think I spelled that right!) to live with the minis. She spends her days/nights walking the fenceline. We didn't have to teach her, it just comes naturally to them. She notices EVERYTHING around the farm and sounds the alarm! We got her as a 10 week old pup and immediately put her with the horses so she's grown up with them as her family. This next summer we are adding addl pasture and we'll be adding another dog so we have one in each pasture.

I think your idea of hotwire outside of the fence is a good one. Also, make sure your fence goes all the way to the ground or make sure you fill in any places where a small animal like a coyote could easily get under it.

Your new property sounds wonderful! You can manage this situation, it's just going to take some time, money and effort.

 

[sedeh]

Debra I was going to tell you about Celebration ranch.......but Stacy beat me to it! They put one Anatolian in each pasture area. They don't put more than one because they want the dog to bond to the horses and not each other. However, I have a friend that got a couple of Anatolian's that were rescue dogs.....so they were free. They live with their goats and do well. They had a cougar kill a bunch of their goats(before they got the dogs)....and their pen was only 100ft from the house. So they will come in close. Anyway.....I could ask them where they found the rescue Anatolians if you want. I think sometimes people get the big dogs and then don't know what to do with them. Scott Creek farm uses predator hot wire and I think that works well too. Good luck!

 

[CAM]

Debra I was going to tell you about Celebration ranch.......but Stacy beat me to it! They put one Anatolian in each pasture area. They don't put more than one because they want the dog to bond to the horses and not each other. However, I have a friend that got a couple of Anatolian's that were rescue dogs.....so they were free. They live with their goats and do well. They had a cougar kill a bunch of their goats(before they got the dogs)....and their pen was only 100ft from the house. So they will come in close. Anyway.....I could ask them where they found the rescue Anatolians if you want. I think sometimes people get the big dogs and then don't know what to do with them. Scott Creek farm uses predator hot wire and I think that works well too. Good luck!

Thanks Sandy! I am also researching Angora goats to eat some of the leafy spurge on the property as chemicals haven't seemed to eradicate it and I understand the goats treat it like dessert. Then becomes the issue of protecting them as you mentioned. I don't want to cross fence the entire property so the goats would be running on about 300+ acres. I think I am too soft-hearted for this stuff.

:

I will have to look into llamas, donkeys and mules too! Thanks for all the ideas. It's a good thing we can board the minis for a bit or we would be really stressed to move quickly. We will work on the fencing first so we can accomodate whatever guard animals we need to bring in and take the time to research the right animals for the job.