dwarf question again

[MindyLee]

Hi there, I had a quick question about dwarfs again. I know this has beed answered before But asking again.

Dose both parents have to be dwarf carriers to to produce a dwarf foal?

A somewhat friend of mine had a dwarf foal born ths yr and I guess the dam now has thrown 2 dwarf foals so far for 2 different people. Because of this, the mare has been sold to a pet home only for the new owners driving mini. In the meantime, I personally believe without voicing my 2 cents to the stallion owner that I think he has the gene as well. He kinda looks like he has slight dwarf charteristics and out of the 2 foals he has produced so far, both colts. The dwarf foal above and also a colt from a diff mare which that colt for the most part looks ok. Not the greatest conformation, but not dwarfy looking.

I only ask as she is leasing out this un reg stallion to a friend of hers that is breeding it to all her mares. And Im just a bit concerend for all the horses and future foals that are involved as they will be sold as "great show horses" in the future.

I want to say STOP but who am I to do so as they will do it anyway. I have mentioned a few concerens but doing so without upsetting these owners.

This is just really bugging me and all I can do is sit back and wait and prove them all wrong after a whole bunch of dwarf foals are born...

ALSO the owner of the mares thinks she knows everything because shes so eductated in minis....

THANKS!

 

[minifreishorsefarm]

Hi there, I had a quick question about dwarfs again. I know this has beed answered before But asking again.

Dose both parents have to be dwarf carriers to to produce a dwarf foal?

A friend of mine had a dwarf foal born ths yr and I guess the dam now has thrown 2 dwarf foals so far for 2 different people. Because of this, the mare has been sold to a pet home only for the new owners driving mini. In the meantime, I personally believe without voicing my 2 cents to the stallion owner that I think he has the gene as well. He kinda looks like he has slight dwarf charteristics and out of the 2 foals he has produced so far, both colts. The dwarf foal above and also a colt from a diff mare which that colt for the most part looks ok. Not the greatest conformation, but not dwarfy looking.

I only ask as she is leasing out this un reg stallion to a friend of hers that is breeding it to all her mares. And Im just a bit concerend for all the horses and future foals that are involved as they will be sold as "great show horses" in the future.

I want to say STOP but who am I to do so as they will do it anyway. I have mentioned a few concerens but doing so without upsetting these owners.

This is just really bugging me and all I can do is sit back and wait and prove them all wrong after a whole bunch of dwarf foals are born...

ALSO the mare owner thinks she knows everything because shes so eductated in minis....

THANKS!

First off why on earth is she breeding an unregistered not great conformation stallion let alone leasing him out to breed several more mares?? And YES the stallion is a carrier and any of the foals that are going to be produced with the new leased home will all have the possibility to produce dwarf foals. The stallion should be gelded not leased out to produce lots more foals many being possibly dwarf or bad conformation.

I'd try and talk to her about this and tell her its not a good idea because her stallion is carrying the gene. I am sure the person wanting to lease him would not be too happy if he produces any dwarfs with her mares.

Marsha

 

[weerunner]

From what I understand the stallion carries the gene and any mare he's bred to that carries the gene has a 25% chance of producing a dwarf foal and a 50% chance of producing a foal that also carries the gene. It's a vicious cycle and they need to stop right now. It doesn't matter how much money you've put into a horse, if it produces a dwarf, it should never be bred again. I swear if any of mine ever have a dwarf, both stallion and mare will be taken out of the breeding business and not just sold off. A buyer would have to be fully aware of the horses faults and agree to never breed the mare and the stallion would be gelded before leaving my barn. There's no room for error here. That's my opinion.

 

[horsehug]

Hi Mindy,

Yes in order to produce a dwarf, both parents have to be carriers of a dwarf gene.

They have a 25% chance of producing a dwarf, a 50% chance of producing a carrier of the gene and a 25% chance of having a foal that does not carry the dwarf gene at all.

If a horse is in fact a dwarf, then he will always give a dwarf gene to his foals because he has two copies.

But carriers just have one copy so they have the percentages I posted.

Susan O.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I agree with the opinions here but fail to see what you can do. You can tell them, it is unlikely that the owner of the stallion will believe you, or care. No-one who thinks that an unregistered stallion is a breeding prospect, in this economy, is going to let a little thing like the possibility of dwarf foals being born (after all, they make big bucks, right??) stop them. I would just walk away, you are not going to be able to do anything practical, I very much doubt.

 

[Riverrose28]

As an educated person you are between a rock and a hard place. First of all an unregistered stallion being bred! Then it is known he sires dwarfs! I don't think there is any thing you can do to educate these people. "You can't fix stupid". The owner of the mares is knowledgable about breeding but willing to breed to a unregisted stallion, and then try to sell them as show quality! with or without the dwarf gene, she is an idiot. (excuse my language). I personally don't think anything you say will change anyones mind at this point, and after all as Rabbit says, dwarfs seem to bring big money for the greedy people that don't care about the poor little horses and all their troubles. shame!

 

[orin]

Can you test to see if they carry the dwarf gene? (Sorry to hijack thread)

 

[sfmini]

There are no tests for the dwarf gene(s) as they have yet to be identified for all types of dwarfism. Right now the genetics of dwarfism are via educated guesses and past experience but there is no scientific evidence to support the comments here.

John Eberth of Arion Management has been studying dwarfism and while he has made a lot of progress, there are no tests to date. There are several different types of dwarfism, as there are in humans.

 

[shelia]

First of all, you say unregistared stallion, then you say someone will try to sell unregistered foals as show foals. I don't think so. A lot of people are practically giving away decent quality registered foals in todays market!

Hopefully you can reach her in time! If it were me, I would risk losing a friend over this.

She is putting her mares in great danger!!! Very often the mare is lost trying to give birth to a dwarf. Many cannot make it through the birth canal.

Tell her that stallion has produced dwarves! She can certainly find a better stallion! There are excellent stallions everywhere right now!

 

[Lizzie]

I think MindyLee, that whenever we truly love a breed, should we see something ghastly about to happen, it is our duty to step in. Certainly, you might lose a friend. If the lady with all the mares is also someone you know, then you might lose two. But when it happens, and it surely will, then they can never say they didn't know.

I would sit down with the stallion owner over lunch maybe and explain that you are greatly troubled by the future breedings of the stallion she is leasing. You should probably copy out all the problems and percentages likely in his future breedings. Show them to her. Beg her to also educate the lady with the mares. Invite them to this forum. Show them these sites...

http://www.minibreeders.com/horsieheaven/

http://www.mini-horse.org/menu_dwarfism.html

Explain the often enormous cost, to the owners of dwarf Minis. Explain the suffering many go through, when not in a committed home. I don't know if it exists in the horse world, but in the world of dogs, there is a "Puppy Lemon Law". If someone knowingly sells a pup, from untested parents and that dog needs extensive surgery and/or vet care for some ghastly interited problem, then the owner can sue the breeder for all costs. It has been done and the dog owner won his case.

Regardless, the stallion owner will know and have been informed that there is a problem and that others might know. Certainly it could get back to the mare owner who will no doubt be mightily upset if her mares produce dwarfs. After you little talk, it will be up to the stallion owner to educate the mare owner. Could be that you will be given the cold shoulder, but at least you know that you tried.

Lizzie

 

[MindyLee]

Oh Im defently going to say something now that I got some hard true facts. I already mentioned to the stallion owner my concernes of her boy being a dwarf producer. Now that I can clearly explain to her what will happen to every foal he produces, hopefully she will take my advice. I also found out today the other foal he produced with the poor quality is also still a stud and will be a 3 yrs old this coming spring!

As for the mare owner, she has R reg mares and pinto reg mares and do know that none of them are in her name so she thinks cause the mares are reg, the foals can even if the stallion is not. Last time i was there I tried to explain to her that untill the mares are in her name, they kinda are not reg. And did, mention to her that I personally wouldnt use that stallion as he threw the dwarf and could do it again. Thats when she said it came from the mare and thats y shes gone. (Also a side note here: this same lady has a dwarf gelding who she 100% totally understands about the dwarfs) SO now that I have some breeding facts, I will be informing her that she is making a huge mistake and should not breed to that stud if its not too late already. She dose have a very nice little mare that I know for sure is going to be bred to him and felt bad as its such a waste of a life of the potential outcome of the resaulting foal. As the same as the other nice mares there. I going to stick my neck out and say that I think this just might be a "Not enough eductation" between both owners and hopefully I can change some minds!