[AppyLover2]

I've read past threads on founder and have questions and/or need clarification about a few things.

My farrier was here on Monday and showed me lines in her hoof that indicate that one of my lil ones has foundered at some point. She was obese and I've made pretty good headway getting weight off her this winter.

I'm currently feeding Strategy. Is it ok to continue with that feed? Or is there something out there that would be better for her?

Obviously she can no longer be on pasture 24/7 but the farrier did say that it would probably be ok to let her back on grass once it's lost it's spring lushness (June-July). Would appreciate thoughts on his comment.

I have her on a joint supplement (started it before finding out about the founder) which has seemed to help her move around a bit easier. Is there something else I should get for her?

Any help/advice would be sincerely appreciated.....I've never dealt with founder before.

[Champ]

I've never had to deal with founder before....thank god but it sounds like your doing the right things ro me

[Hosscrazy]

My first question is why did your horse founder - was it because of the obesity issue or is she IR (insulin resistant). That's the main question to ask your vet - what caused her founder. I'm not sure how to answer your question on Strategy, since the answer is really tied into the question of cause. IF your horse is IR, then I personally would not have the horse on Strategy as the NSC level would be much too high. Here's the breakdown of NSC (non-structural carbohydrates) by popular feed. Again, it really depends on the cause of her founder.

LMF - Low Carb Complete Stage 1 - 11% or less
LMF Senior - 30%

FARNAM:
Platform Senior - 16.1%

BLUE SEAL:
Vintage Gold - 32%
Vintage Mare Foal - 33%
Vintage Senior - 20%
Vintage Racer - 30%
Vintage Sweet - 35%
Vintage Victory 36%
Demand - 26%
Contender - 34%
Hunter - 33%
Trotter - 25%
Sport 40%
Strider - 42%
Charger - 39%
Pacer - 48%
Rider - 44%
Horse 10 - 45%

POULIN:
Senior 31.3%
MVP - 17.4% (27% protein)
Stablemate 14 complete - 16.3%
Endure 10:12 - 33.7%
Endure 10:8 - 33.9%
Carb Safe - 10% or less

SEMINOLE Happy Hoof - 15%
Sterett Low Carb Complete (pelleted - hay) - 8.6%

TRIPLE CROWN:
10% performance - 41.5%
14% performance - 38.2%
Complete 21.7%
Senior - 15.7%
Growth - 19.8%
Low Starch - 15.0%
Lite - 15.9%
12% - 29.7%

PURINA:
Horse Chow 100 - 16%
Horse Chow 200 - 18%
Strategy - 28%
Omelene 100 - 40.5% (eeegads!)
Equine Adult - 20%
Equine Jr - 23%
Equine Sr - 22%
Complete Advantage 22.9% (beet pulp based)
Nature Essentials (Mare & Main) supplement - 16% (protein about 12-14%)
Nature Essentials Born to Win 16% (but 32% protein)

NUTRENA -
SafeChoice - 28% (12% sugar, 16% starch)

[chandab]

I've read past threads on founder and have questions and/or need clarification about a few things.

My farrier was here on Monday and showed me lines in her hoof that indicate that one of my lil ones has foundered at some point. She was obese and I've made pretty good headway getting weight off her this winter.

I'm currently feeding Strategy. Is it ok to continue with that feed? Or is there something out there that would be better for her?

Obviously she can no longer be on pasture 24/7 but the farrier did say that it would probably be ok to let her back on grass once it's lost it's spring lushness (June-July). Would appreciate thoughts on his comment.

I have her on a joint supplement (started it before finding out about the founder) which has seemed to help her move around a bit easier. Is there something else I should get for her?

Any help/advice would be sincerely appreciated.....I've never dealt with founder before.

Stategy has kind of a high NSC (sugar/starch) level of 28%; so you might want to get her onto a lower NSC product. [Also, no grain for her; no oats, no barley, no corn. Limited alfalfa, some tolerate it, some don't.]
Purina makes Born to Win and Mare & Maintenance which are both under 16%; Purina Horse Chow 100, Purina Horse Chow 200 and Purina Adult are 20% or less. Triple Crown has a few products that would be good: TC Lite, LC Low Starch and TC Senior are all under 16%; TC also makes Safe Starch a complete feed with under 10% NSC (its chopped forage in a bag with a vitamin/mineral pellet added to balance). Nutrena's Lite Balance is about 17%. [These numbers were gathered by a friend of mine with a foundered mare, they aren't listed on the bags; some companies readily share the information with you, others don't, so samples have been sent to testing labs by concerned individuals. This is not an all inclusive list, but covers quite of few of the more popular brands and products.]
I have a previously foundered mare, she's been doing pretty good on Progressive Nutrition ProAdvantage grass formula (ration balancer) and grass hay; plus a small amount of soaked beet pulp (non-molasses beet pulp pellets) and a supplement called Remission (its for founder prone horses). Its important to keep them on a regular hoof trimming schedule; how far between trims depends on the individual (in summer my girl needs every 4 weeks, in winter its every 6).

[targetsmom]

I had experience with a foundered mare over 40 years ago before we knew as much as we know now. She had a very heavy crest, which we now know can be associated with a higher risk of founder. One of the big problems with founder is that once they founder, it seems easier for them to do it again and again.

I currently have a young mini show mare with a slightly heavy crest and of course I want to do everything possible so that she never founders. I feed her Nutrena Senior Feed - a complete feed which is fairly low in NSCs (I can't remember the number the Nutrena nutritionist quoted me, and it can change), soaked beet pulp that I rinse the molasses off, and hay. I try to give her good quality hay but not the really fine, almost grass-like second cutting hay that I sometimes get (and the others love!). It seems like when she gets the really nice hay, her neck blows up - kind of like eating ice cream and having it go right to your thighs!! She also gets a daily wormer, vitamins, and the Remission that someone else mentioned. That is a Magnesium and Chromium supplement designed specifically for founder-prone horses. Oh, and she also gets a tiny amount of soaked alfalfa cubes along with everyone else as part of her bedtime snack. Can you say SPOILED??

She is the black and white mare in the snow in my handy new avatar.

[barefoot]

My first question is why did your horse founder - was it because of the obesity issue or is she IR (insulin resistant). That's the main question to ask your vet - what caused her founder. I'm not sure how to answer your question on Strategy, since the answer is really tied into the question of cause. IF your horse is IR, then I personally would not have the horse on Strategy as the NSC level would be much too high. Here's the breakdown of NSC (non-structural carbohydrates) by popular feed. Again, it really depends on the cause of her founder.

LMF - Low Carb Complete Stage 1 - 11% or less
LMF Senior - 30%

FARNAM:
Platform Senior - 16.1%

BLUE SEAL:
Vintage Gold - 32%
Vintage Mare Foal - 33%
Vintage Senior - 20%
Vintage Racer - 30%
Vintage Sweet - 35%
Vintage Victory 36%
Demand - 26%
Contender - 34%
Hunter - 33%
Trotter - 25%
Sport 40%
Strider - 42%
Charger - 39%
Pacer - 48%
Rider - 44%
Horse 10 - 45%

POULIN:
Senior 31.3%
MVP - 17.4% (27% protein)
Stablemate 14 complete - 16.3%
Endure 10:12 - 33.7%
Endure 10:8 - 33.9%
Carb Safe - 10% or less

SEMINOLE Happy Hoof - 15%
Sterett Low Carb Complete (pelleted - hay) - 8.6%

TRIPLE CROWN:
10% performance - 41.5%
14% performance - 38.2%
Complete 21.7%
Senior - 15.7%
Growth - 19.8%
Low Starch - 15.0%
Lite - 15.9%
12% - 29.7%

PURINA:
Horse Chow 100 - 16%
Horse Chow 200 - 18%
Strategy - 28%
Omelene 100 - 40.5% (eeegads!)
Equine Adult - 20%
Equine Jr - 23%
Equine Sr - 22%
Complete Advantage 22.9% (beet pulp based)
Nature Essentials (Mare & Main) supplement - 16% (protein about 12-14%)
Nature Essentials Born to Win 16% (but 32% protein)

NUTRENA -
SafeChoice - 28% (12% sugar, 16% starch)

I love this list! Thank you, Hope you don't mind if I print this out. May I ask how you put this together or where you got it?
Emma

[Hosscrazy]

I love this list! Thank you, Hope you don't mind if I print this out. May I ask how you put this together or where you got it?
Emma

In addition to moderating the LB Forum, I also moderate the Yahoo Cushings/IR forum (IR meaning Insulin Resistance). Diet plays a critical role in IR horses and the choice in feed for IR horses can literally mean the difference between life and death. We have compiled this list over the years to help the owners of Cushings/IR horses.

Glad to hear you found this list helpful. If you ever need your feed analyzed, go to:

http://www.dairyone.com and there is a form you can print and send in with your feed sample. They provide quality analysis on feed and hay.

Liz R.

[Fred]

I have an IR mare that is on Pure Pride 100 it is a pelleted feed like Strategy but has less fat. Becky was diagnosed several years ago and has been on this feed ever since and it really works well. I also use it on horses that tend to be cresty. It still gives them enough energy to fit up and stay in really good condition as I use it on the driving horses I know it works. By the way Becky is a National Grand Champion CP Driving mare and was diagnosed after she had won one grand then went on to win 2 more. Linda

[AppyLover2]

Just wanted to thank those of you who responded. Liz.....that list is great! Now I'll have to find out which of those feeds is available in my area. In the meanwhile I started transitioning her over to Purina Senior last night since that's what I feed my big guy. I don't know when or what caused her to founder. It was long enough ago that the hoof that was trimmed off showed signs of it. I will continue to keep her on the joint supplement as she was actually running and bucking a bit yesterday with the geldings....did my heart good to see that! Will also have her checked for IR and try to find Remission so I can start her on that.

Also appreciate the comments about a cresty neck as the pony has one. Guess when I see what feed is available around here with lower NCS (thanks again for that list Liz) I should just put them all on it.

Any comments about what the farrier said about letting them out on grass later in the year???? Keeping her in a dry lot is gonna be difficult for me. Although I know it's for her own good.....I'm gonna feel guilty about it every time the others go out.

[Hosscrazy]

Again, it really depends on what caused your mare to founder. The typical symptoms of IR include:

- Easy weight gain
- Abnormal fat desposits such as a cresty neck or lumpy, cellulite-like fat at the tail base. These fat deposits will usually persist even if the horse loses weight elsewhere on his body
- Puffiness (fat) in the hollows above the eyes
- History of laminitis – commonly induced by grass
- Advanced symptoms include increased thirst and urination, loss of body condition, especially muscle, weakness, low energy levels

If you can, it would be a good idea to have your vet come out and run a simple blood insulin test, which will tell you whether or not your horse is IR. While you're at it, it couldn't hurt to run thyroid function tests (ask for both T3 and T4 tests).

Both grass and/or Purina Equine Senior are NOT good choices for IR horses. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that it was the Equine Senior that threw my mare into full blown laminitis with severe coffin bone rotation (founder). At the time, I did not know anything about IR nor did I know that my mare was Cushings/IR. Sure would have made a world of difference if I had know back then what I know today.

Best wishes,

Liz R.