[Jill]

Maddie is still not allowing Trooper (born 4/29 @ 6:30pm) nurse unless you hold her and tell her to stand. You can step back and sometimes unsnap the halter but have to keep telling her to be still. She won't let him near her if you don't hold her. Sometimes after he's nursed and goes a way, she will lunge at him and bite him (I don't think hard) and she has kicked him. She doesn't kick him when we make her let him nurse.

I'm not sure what to do. I tried rubbing the towel we dried him off with on him, her and him again then draping it over him. She's interested in that smell but didn't change her attitude towards him.

Tried this morning to get him to drink Foal Lac mixed w/ her milk and syrup but couldn't. Tried like an hour and a half and he'd been 3 hours not nursing prior (wanted him good and hungry). He was starting to fall asleep so had no choice but to make her let him nurse again.

Maddie had a hard delivery and nearly or did prolapse her uterus (not sure on correct term -- it wasn't outside of her body but the vet had to push it back from the cervix and push the horns of it how they go). She was like she was in hard labor for about an hour after he was born (took me about 10 minutes to call the vet when I realized for sure it wasn't normal, then the vet maybe 40 minutes to arrive). Had to have an epidural ETC. so Maddie was unable to investigate Trooper at all until he was 4-5 hours old. I think this is the cause of the rejection.

She has raised at least one other foal before.

Not at my wits end yet but I think that may be coming, plus the reality of needing to be able to go to work here at some point. I do think from what my vet said, I can now go longer now than every 2 hours on feeding at his current age (I think he said 3-4 hours at 3-4 days) which helps but still won't give me time to go to the office.

I just really need to get her to accept him, or get him to drink from a bowl and hoping some of you have some advice that could help.

Thanks!
Jill

PS here they are. In the pic together, I airbrushed out the lead rope which I was at the end of. She shows mild interest when he nurses but then when he's done sometimes pins ears and lunges at him and two nights ago she corned him int he stall and was kicking him. Now that they can go in/out of the stall and he can stay out of her way better, she's not going out of her way to attack him. In case gives any additional insight (and oh man am I tired)

PPS he is active after he nurses, runs and bucks. Nickers when he hears us coming, too (knows that means he'll get to eat).

05/05/09 UPDATE:

Just wanted to update everyone on "Trooper"!!!

We gave up on trying to get Maddie to accept him. She was becoming more and more resentful of him, however...........

He is doing very well with drinking milk (Foal Lac formula) from a bowl. He learned to do it late Sunday morning and I think he's pretty happy to now get enough to eat! His dam had a very difficult time after his birth requiring extensive vet care. This put her "meeting him" back 4-5 hours after delivery. I think this, along with her pain, caused her to reject him but the alternative was she would have died. But, thank God, Trooper is eating well and he is VERY frisky!!!

Here he is in action and in picture. His front leg is SO much better. Still not perfect, but no comparison to how it was at birth and I feel confident it will be straight (as does our vet). His back legs are great now. In the picture and probably in some of the video, he was thinking about potty which is why he's got a hunched posture. I wish I could catch him playing in the stall on film but I cannot get far enough away from him in there to catch a video and when I look in right now, he doesn't play. I can sure see him doing it over the stall camera, though

Whinny For Me's Finely Dun, a/k/a Trooper

2009 AMHA / AMHR pending, AMHR Futurity Nominated Red Dun Colt (may grey out) -- Expected To Mature @ or under 34"
By Erica's Gone and DunIT (AMHR Nat'l Top 10 / AMHA Honor Roll / Multi Champion) and Out of Wee Equine Acres Dun Sweet
Bloodlines include: Buckeroo, BTU, Yellow Diamond Little Feather, and Egyptian King

YouTube Video of Trooper Drinking From His Bowl on Monday Morning
(^ link ^)

05/08/09 Update / Summary -- What Worked For Us

For those who may read this looking for ways to help their own rejected or orphan foal, I wanted to just give a quick like point list of what helped us the most, as we were not ever able to get Maddie to accept Trooper despite some early optimism:

1. From what we have read, it is best to get the baby onto a shallow bucket or bowl (best) because the bottle can get them to suck down air and also harbor bacteria more readily than buckets / bowls. We never could get Trooper to latch onto a bottle anyway.
2. We had the most luck with a metal 10" diameter dog bowl that from the inside was just about 3" deep. We kept holding it to Trooper's muzzle and I also took my hand and smeared his muzzle with the milk so he'd lick it off and get the taste of it. I tilted it so the deep end would be at his muzzle when I held it up to him and I did dunk his chin but never over his mouth as that could go up his nose.
3. The first few days, foals must have milk every 1-2 hours around the clock. After 3-4 days, you can go to about every 3 hours. Then you can stretch it to every 4.
4. The foal will be less likely to put his head down into a bucket than to drink out of a more shallow bowl (thanks, Kay!).
5. You will have the best luck if you have a way to prop the bowl up when you leave it for the foal to drink. We used a milk crate turned upside down and "filled" it with 6 cut 4x4 posts. This was to give it weight so not to be knocked around. The bowl is the kind that is hard for dogs to tip over and we set it down on the cut posts inside the milk crate. It fits in about 2" into the crate which keeps the bowl from being slid off the surface.
6. Once the foal will start eating milk replacer pellets, you can go longer between milk feedings. These pellets can be fed free choice and will not spoil so long as you do not wet them.
7. Sprinkle milk replacer formula over pellets to get the foal more interested in them (thank you, Cristina!).
8. We found a limited number of brands of powder and pellets available "locally" (we traveled a wide circle of local to get what we now have on hand). Many recommended Progressive Nutrition formula and pellets to me, and I'd have gotten them but the closest dealer is about 125 miles from here.
9. We found Mare's Match and Foal Lac powders and pellets to be easiest to find here. We have some of each, however, the Foal Lac brand pellets are MUCH softer than the Mare's Match. If you have the same two choices, early on, go with the Foal Lac Pellets. When in doubt, try them yourself... I did and it beats the foal choking on them.
10. Starting at around 10 days old, foal should have free choice soft / tender / leafy hay, salt and water free choice. Fill the water bucket up to the top so foal doesn't have to stick his/her head down too far into a "scary" bucket.

I hope no one needs this thread for a long time, however, I know if we ever have the same kind of situation, the next time will be MUCH easier thanks to what I learned on this thread and through hands on trial and error with Trooper.

Thank You everyone who chimed in with ideas and moral support. This was just one of the times I have seen LB members come together to help each other and it illustrates why "this place" is so great -- it has so many caring and knowledgable members!!!

[LittleRibbie]

Oh Jill, that is so not the news I was hoping for. I wish I could offer some advice. Is Maddie able to see the other moms nursing their foals....maybe stand them all together... monkey see monkey do.......gosh I just dont know. Prayers to all and crossed fingers. The last picture is precious. Heidi

[luv2ridesaddleseat]

Oh dang it Jill! Sometimes this stuff just doesn't go easy. If it were me, I'd be using this. I hear amazing things about it!

http://www.doublelac...lk_replacer.htm

[Minimor]

I can't offer any advice on getting Maddie to accept him completely--I have no personal experience at all with a mare rejecting a foal.

I have bottle/bowl fed a couple. I started mine on a bottle--use straight mare's milk to get him accepting the bottle. Once he's nursing good on the bottle, substitute formula for the mare's milk. In my case, once the colt was familiar with the bottle he was quite agreeable about drinking formula. (I used goat's milk w/corn syrup--I have never had any success with getting foals to like the powdered formula!) I just had to squeeze some formula into his mouth, then he discovered that it tasted good & went to nursing. Once he liked formula from the bottle I had no trouble getting him to drink formula from a bowl--I just let him get a little bit hungry, and then he took right to drinking.

You've got a real nice colt there--I hope he can soon figure out the milk-in-a-bowl so you can get some sleep and go to work!

[ontherisefarm]

I dunno Jill. I wonder if she is associating the colt with all the pain she was going through and then all the stuff afterwards when the vet arrived. I think just about the only thing you can do is what you are doing and hope she realizes that it isnt his fault. If you want her to accept him. If you are wanting to feed him formula then that is kinda a process to for some that have already nursed the mare. I really dont know as I have never dealt with this before so I guess I am gonna shut up now.. I do wish you the best.. Maybe you can find someone to help you hold the mare while you are at work. I would do it for you if you were close but alas I am not.

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

I don't know how you've got your barn/turnout set-up, but a friend of mine had a similar problem with a full-size mare and foal.. Mare tolerated having the foal around but wouldn't let her nurse, so they set-up a "safe-haven/creep area" for the foal where she'd be able to 'get away' and in the creep area they used one of the foal igloo cooler feeders, don't know if you've seen that, but may be an option (link to picture of one with donkey foal: Igloo feeder Their foal is doing great, she learned that that area was where she'd get fed and also knew she could go there if momma was crabby.. Might give that a try, would allow you to leave him with her (if she tolerates it) but gives him his own personal area, plus the cooler would allow you to leave him enough milk for a longer period of time, then when you got home from work/errands could switch it out with fresh..

With the orphan filly we had three years ago (lost the mare) we could never get her to drink from a bottle, stuck a bucket in with her and she took to it right away.. When we took the dairy calves from the cows and switched them from bottle to bucket, we'd get them nursing on the nipple then stick it into the bucket of milk and let them drink through the nipple out of the bucket until they got used to sticking their head down in the bucket, after that we didn't need the nipple anymore..

[funnybunny]

Something similar happened a while back. The vet gave the mare some sort of calmative/sedative/pain reliever which would not affect the foal. It calmed her enough that she did not fret and it only took two doses for her to let the foal stay and nurse her. Sorry, can't remember if it was a painkiller plus sedative or what, but it sure took the edge off and allowed the mare to calm down and get to know the foal.

Perhaps you could ask your vet about what drugs would help in a case like this. If she hurts so much, she may not want to be bothered, so if you can take care of the pain and calm her down, things might be better. So sorry this is happening to you.

[bevann]

Have you tried feeding the mare while you are holding her for the foal to nurse?Maybe if she associates him with something pleasant she will take to him.She also seems to be checking out his butt when he is nursing-maybe put something sweet like sprinkle sweet feed or sugar on his butt so she can lick him while he is nursing.Maybe after a few days she will get the idea that he is OK.He sure is beautiful.don't worry about the legs>They usually come around.I had a filly many years ago with a hock at a right angle when born.After a few days out running around it straightened up.I also had a very knock kneed colt(Forrest Gump)because he was slow to find the milk bar.I did physical therapy on his legs several times a day and he came out fine.Just took 1 hand below the knee and 1 hand above the knee and gently straightened the leg while counting to 10.Did this several times a day and it worked.Good luck and keep us posted.

[MiLo Minis]

I had a mare that wouldn't accept her first foal. She would get a really hard udder so I thought it was because it was painful for her when he nursed. I used warm clothes, massaged her udder and milked a bit out to soften it before holding her so he could nurse without harm. I actually had to hobble her so that she would let him close enough without being able to kick him. I had the vet in and he gave her a mild sedative. NOTHING worked. Every time I let him alone with her loose she would beat him up although we had set up a small pen in the corner that only he could get into. Finally on the 5th day I caught her picking him up by the back of his neck and that was it. I took him out and brought him in the house. We set up a stall in the basement for him and I became his mom. We tried breeding with her once more with the same result. She was sold as a pet. I sure hope you have better luck than I did. There is nothing worse than a mom that won't mother. She was a beautiful Buckeroo/Rowdy bred palomino mare that I totally adored until she did that. I couldn't believe how strongly I despised that mare afterwards.

Anyway, I bottle fed him at first. You need to be really careful not to tip his head up when feeding from a bottle or the milk can go into the lungs. Then we set up a calf pail with nipple. I smeared milk on the nipple, placed his muzzle on it and away he went. It was only a day before he started drinking from the pail rather than the nipple and he did that on his own. We used milk I took from the mare, goats milk with corn syrup added and then milk replacer formula. I was finding he didn't do all that well on goats milk. I introduced foal pellets at about 8 days old and he would nibble on them. He is now a fully mature horse and you would never know he was basically an orphan.

[Ashley]

At this age, to be honest, she probably isnt going to accept him. So, personally if it was me I would just bottle raise him and not take any chances. Do you have any others that would be a good buddy for him?

Use a lamb nipple on a soda bottle. It will take time but he should take to it...........as for work........just tell your dad you need to add on a office for a few months