Driving Question

I have been doing alot of reacherch on Driving, and alot of the horses are 'on the bit' and really collected. How do you acheive that, with out using your legs? when i ride dressage, everything is by the legs, when we ask them to get 'on the bit' we use or legs, and engage there hind end, and drive them forward. So i guess i'm asking, how you get them like that with out using there legs.

That's a complicated subject! The short answer is that your voice and whip take the place of the leg and seat aids. Your voice is going to be providing the "go forward" or impulsive cue and you'll use the whip to touch their sides where your leg would be and encourage them to bend the ribcage. The lack of physical contact is why it's so important that driving horses learn to trust the bit- they absolutely MUST be completely comfortable with it because they're going to be depending upon it for far more of their instruction than a ridden horse will. If they're busy fighting it and evading it they'll never learn how to go forward into contact and hence how to round up and carry themselves. Your hands must be soft and elastic but always there, guiding and balancing the horse and providing leadership they can trust. Remember, with the blinders on your horse thinks he's all alone out there!

Leia

Ok, cool.

The short answer is that your voice and whip take the place of the leg and seat aids. Your voice is going to be providing the "go forward" or impulsive cue

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So, exactly how is that done?

Remember, with the blinders on your horse thinks he's all alone out there!

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So i want to use blinders?

Your hands must be soft and elastic but always there, guiding and balancing the horse and providing leadership they can trust.

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WELL SAID!!!!

It is a partnership, and trust is of utmost importance for the team to work "effortlessly" together.

So many people think a whip is cruel, and say they never use one...but to truely drive...to direct your horse, you need to use it properly and wisely. For anyone who rides...try riding without using your legs at all, and you will find it all but impossible to do so with any finess whatsoever.

Celtic Hill Farm said:

Ok, cool.

The short answer is that your voice and whip take the place of the leg and seat aids. Your voice is going to be providing the "go forward" or impulsive cue

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So, exactly how is that done?

Remember, with the blinders on your horse thinks he's all alone out there!

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So i want to use blinders?

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Your horse needs to be trained to respond to voice cues and be desensitized to the whip before being put in harness. The best place to do this is in a round pen and then on the long lines. You will need to use blinders if you plan to show and the organizations rules require them but if they don't or you don't plan to show then they are not absolutely necessary if your horse can be trained to be trustworthy over vehicles approaching from behind. From the sound of it you may find you would be better off to get some instruction on driving on an already trained horse. You really can't "read" training well enough to train a horse by yourself for the first time without some knowledgeable help unless you get really lucky and have one of those horses that doesn't have any issues or attitude.

The best place to do this is in a round pen and then on the long lines

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exactly where i thought! So what kind of stuff should i be working on? verbal comands?

I would strongly suggest finding a driving trainer to help you. If you have never driven, it could be dangerous to start training your own animals to drive. The blind-leading-the-blind is not a good approach. Driving can be extremely dangerous if the animal or the human is green, and even more so if both parties are green.

Is there anyone you can find, rather than trying to follow words written on a public forum? Always makes me nervous...

Andrea

I have a acess to a driving trainer (my boss), We have a few driving pony/minis there. But she dosn't compete in the AMHA curcut or AMHR or anything.

Celtic Hill Farm said:

I have a acess to a driving trainer (my boss), We have a few driving pony/minis there. But she dosn't compete in the AMHA curcut or AMHR or anything.

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Then I would talk to her as she may have entirely different methods or commands that she wants you to use/follow. And, again, get her to give you some lessons in driving. It doesn't matter if she isn't a show driver if she can train a horse to drive she should be able to teach you as well.

Driving is driving when you're talking about this kind of basic stuff. Besides, you won't be showing under AMHR or A rules with your girls anyway!

As for how to train your animal to go forward on voice, it's a matter of teaching them what the cue means and rewarding them when they do it, just like any other training. When you tell them to "get up there" or "trot on" or whatever cue you plan to use to mean "add impulsion to your gait" you have to insist they at least make some sort of effort and calmly escalate your request if they don't.

Example: I ask the green horse to Trot and he raises his head and walks a little faster but doesn't trot. I'm going to keep careful contact on my reins (rather than throwing them away and allowing the animal to go on its forehand), re-collect him or her, then ask again for the trot in a firmer tone of voice. If she doesn't trot I'm immediately going to flick the animal with the whip on the back near the saddle area and ask again. Most of them will give up and pick up a trot at this point and I'm going to slightly soften my rein and praise the horse verbally for the correct response then allow him to walk again after a few good strides. If giving in to your request only gets them more work, they're going to be reluctant to do it. They need to know that doing the right thing is both easy and brings things they like such as a chance to walk or stand again. When you first ask your horse to trot faster or offer a lengthened trot (which aren't the same thing) they won't be able to hold it for more than a stride or two because they simply won't have the muscle yet. As long as they give you at least an effort to move out you reward them, but they really must give you at least an effort or you'll ask again more firmly. Letting them get away with ignoring you sets a bad precedent. That's really all there is to it...the rest is just building it a few strides at a time until the horse can hold the gait or speed as long as you ask. Take it slowly, be on the lookout for fatigue or soreness, and look for little things to reward so you always end on a good note.

As for blinders, no, they aren't absolutely necessary. Many organizations require them so I think it's important that every driving animal learn to go in them but if you prefer to drive "open" (without blinders) and your girls are happy and safe that way you certainly can. I'm not completely comfortable until I know they can drive either way, it's just one of those safety things for me. I use blinders because I show but want that horse to know what's behind him as well.

Leia

This poster is in the UK.

Here in the UK we do not use check reins.

We do NOT have to use Blinkers in a show class, show classes are run under the British Driving Society rules and Blinkers are optional.

If you animal goes well without blinkers, and all mine do, I would advise you to leave them without blinkers.

It only becomes a problem when you drive as a pair, I have done Tandem open, but in fact the only pair I have ever trained we had one pony used to open bridle and one, old man in a closed bridle.

We did actually end up taking the blinkers off the 19 year old (with much apprehension on my part, as I was doing it!!)

He was absolutely 100% fine!!

Do you have any trainers around that you can work with?

I think that would be such a valuable tool if so. There are a lot of people who can offer advice here, and a wide wide range of experience.

There's no substitute tor being able to work one on one with someone who knows what they're talking about and in training a horse, it's so hard to "un-do" something after it's done.

PS I think Ian / Celtic is actually in a US town called Scotland? I seem to remember him saying this before?

Really??

There's a town called Scotland???

Yea there is lol. I AM in the USA, lol... even in my state, no one knows of the town of scotland, because it's so little.

rabbitsfizz said:

Really??There's a town called Scotland???

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Here in VA we also have an Isle of Wight... Other towns / counties as well named after, but I cannot think of any off the top of my head this morning...

Hi,

Ditto on the "really good to use a trainer" advise. I have been getting training lessons from a CDE person that has experience in both minis and full sized horses since March. I have driven horses many times in the past, but I had no idea until I received lessons there was so much to the driving training. We are learning voice cues, learning how to use the whip as an aid and cue, learning how to get the horse to bend, turn collected and learning how to get a decent head set. It is complicated and I learn so much with every lesson. Like in riding there is a way to hold the reins, how much pressure, when to let up and on and on. My guys are ground training now and we are taking it slow and don't expect to hook up to a cart for quite some time. What is really cool is just how much fun my boys are having with the training. They LOVE it. They see me bring out the training supply stuff and they line up and beg to go first. Best wishes.

rabbitsfizz said:

Really??There's a town called Scotland???

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There's one in Texas, too.....

Lucy

If my guess is right that Celtic Hill Farm is from Scotland CONNECTICUT (a very nice small town I might add) then you have a great opportunity to learn more about driving next weekend at the Massachusetts Equine Affaire - www.equineaffaire.com. It is in West Springfield, MA, at the site of the Big E, so just over the line from CT off I-91. The event runs Thursday Nov 13- Sun Nov 16, but the driving clinics are on Saturday and Sunday. There will also be a miniature horse Breed Demonstration on Friday at 3 PM and plenty of opportunity to meet miniature horse owners and drivers of equines of all sizes. I will be there all 4 days so if anyone wants to meet me, send me a PM or check out either the Pinto or Miniature Horse Booths in the Breed Pavillion.

shorthorsemom said:

I have been getting training lessons from a CDE person ... and learning how to get a decent head set.

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Shorthorsemom, most of the time I agree with your trainer but IMO the words "CDE" and "head set" do not belong in the same sentence. A head set is a fixed position achieved without regard to what the rest of the body is doing (good or bad), while CDE and classical dressage in general focus on what the whole body is doing with the head coming onto the vertical as a by-product. I've trained for a headset while showing my Arab and it isn't detrimental to the horse or anything but it does put the focus on the outline rather than on the process and CDE, thankfully, is all about the process.

Just my cheap (and off-topic) .02

Leia

P.S.- Hey Ian, maybe you could change your profile to show that you live in Scotland, U.S.? These little mixups are fun but you might get clearer answers that way.

Perhaps in trying to keep my post short you mis-understood me somewhat.... My trainer does CDE and competes with full sized horses, typically pairs but she does singles too. She is helping me train my boys to drive.

The head set I am talking about is trying to get my boys on the bit and working rather than putting their heads in the air and avoiding the new bit in addition to getting proper position and carry the bit etc . She wants us collected and responding to the bit.

I have not trained a driving horse prevously so perhaps I am using terms differently or incorrectly. The point of my post is that people could benefit from taking lessons if they are unsure of anything. Lots easier learning the first time correctly than to guess and retrain.

And I do believe that a horse that does CDE does need to have a decent head set or maybe I should say head position or head placement because I am not meaning that they should not move their head when I say head set.. I have some reading to do I guess.

I think whether you are doing dressage or cones or hazards balance is important. Maybe I better study up on "terms" because for me head set is positional not fixed with regards to the level of driving I am working on.

Sorry for the confusion. I am no where near competition level. My trainer is quite good and I hope some of her talent rubs off on us. I sure do love to watch CDE, been attending events forever and did some prelim level navigating (hold the stopwatch and lean when she told me). My trainer used to work for Lisa Singer as a navigator for a pair of morgans and that level of driving is unbelievable to watch and stuff to dream about.

We have some local CDE events in the PA and MD area around here where you can go and oogle the high level people. My favorite is 4 in hand, nothing like watching them go through a hazard. I am small potatoes but loving every minute of the experience. It is so nice to learn something new. Best wishes.